Why does Honda insist on using timing belts instead of chains?

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Chains generally will make plenty of noise for a long time before letting go. Belts just silently shear off a few teeth out of the blue.

I also think a lot of chain issues are mitigated with a proper OCI and maintaining a proper oil level between OCIs. A lot of these engines with bad chains seem to be neglected.
 
The Critic said:
Pilot timing belt is a 2 hr job for most techs, maybe less. But dealer price for the timing belt pkg, plugs and valve adjust total about $2500 around here, so it isn't much less than the timing chain job.
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Egads!

At the risk of thread drift… why do the valves need to be adjusted? I mean, in the spirit of this thread and all, how come Honda uses non hydraulic followers? when so many others don’t.

I think I’d more quickly complain about that as opposed to the timing belt. Not sure on Honda, but I don’t like the followers on my 5S FE as they are not adjustable, instead you swap shims to correct. Seems wrong in some way. (otoh they haven’t been touched in 20yrs/230k so should I complain? well it’s bitog…)
 
supton said:
I think I’d more quickly complain about that as opposed to the timing belt. Not sure on Honda, but I don’t like the followers on my 5S FE as they are not adjustable, instead you swap shims to correct. Seems wrong in some way. (otoh they haven’t been touched in 20yrs/230k so should I complain? well it’s bitog…)
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direct buckets have been around since the beginning of time because they work
 
2EHA said:
direct buckets have been around since the beginning of time because they work
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Don’t hydraulic lifters work too? bit newer though, and I think they have float issues (?), but on an appliance mill not being wrung out often, would it matter?

Not saying they don’t work. Just felt like adding fuel to grampis fire.
 
supton said:
Egads!

At the risk of thread drift… why do the valves need to be adjusted? I mean, in the spirit of this thread and all, how come Honda uses non hydraulic followers? when so many others don’t.

I think I’d more quickly complain about that as opposed to the timing belt. Not sure on Honda, but I don’t like the followers on my 5S FE as they are not adjustable, instead you swap shims to correct. Seems wrong in some way. (otoh they haven’t been touched in 20yrs/230k so should I complain? well it’s bitog…)
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Always been that way but few know. Fewer actually get them serviced and many face "the burn."

I can only surmise its for high RPM valve control and getting every last drop of HP per CC.

The intervals are pretty long 100K or more.
 
VW has been using belts on their newer motors because for some reason they couldn't get chains right, the last time they did was for the 2.5, but even that was questionable.

Belts seem to be alot more reliable than chains, but chains can be just as reliable and can last a very long time. if done RIGHT.

I too wish that honda would've used timing chain, changing the belt on the v6 is kind of a hassle, but the longevity has been proven using belts.
 
UncleDave said:
Always been that way but few know. Fewer actually get them serviced and many face "the burn."

I can only surmise its for high RPM valve control and getting every last drop of HP per CC.

The intervals are pretty long 100K or more.
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I forget if I checked mine or not, maybe this summer I should run them. Actually while I have the crv in the garage maybe I should check them, never thought of that until now…
 
The Critic said:
I don't think is the case with the VW EA888 engines. They are usually silent up until failure.
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The ea888 gen 2 failure point is the tensioner, the teeth break off the ratchet mechanism. Anyone with one of the engines should have the tensioner replaced with the modified/ updated version.

The ea888 gen 3 has no known issues with the chain assembly, the thermostat now that’s another story! 😂
 
xgmad said:
VW has been using belts on their newer motors because for some reason they couldn't get chains right, the last time they did was for the 2.5, but even that was questionable.

Belts seem to be alot more reliable than chains, but chains can be just as reliable and can last a very long time. if done RIGHT.

I too wish that honda would've used timing chain, changing the belt on the v6 is kind of a hassle, but the longevity has been proven using belts.
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This isn’t exactly true. Excluding the ea888 gen 3 all the 4 cyl or less now use belts. All engines over 4 cyl use chains with no issues on any of the current production units.
 
Honda timing belt change is usually a 100K mile affair. That is a second owner territory problem for most first new buyers who do not care it has a belt. Those that do care, just know when that bill is due and takes care of it.
 
Audiman said:
The ea888 gen 2 failure point is the tensioner, the teeth break off the ratchet mechanism. Anyone with one of the engines should have the tensioner replaced with the modified/ updated version.
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Yes, but the chains also wear. I make it a habit to do this on any EA888 car at every oil change:
https://us.autologic.com/news/stretched-timing-chain-diagnosis-volkswagen-models

supton said:
Egads!

At the risk of thread drift… why do the valves need to be adjusted?
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Lack of hydraulic lash adjusters.
 
supton said:
Don’t hydraulic lifters work too? bit newer though, and I think they have float issues (?), but on an appliance mill not being wrung out often, would it matter?

Not saying they don’t work. Just felt like adding fuel to grampis fire.
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Ironically, @grampi the thread starter has a car (2004 Corolla) with shims and buckets.

It specifies a 90,000 mile interval for valve checking and adjustment, IIRC. I did that twice on the 2006 Corolla we once owned.

So, while crowing in this thread about his superior timing chain, he has withheld the fact that his engine does NOT have hydraulic lash adjustment (like many engines with timing belts ) and requires several hundreds of dollars of valve clearance checking and adjustment every 90,000 miles.

The timing belt is a much easier procedure.

Costs less, too.
 
Astro14 said:
Ironically, @grampi the thread starter has a car (2004 Corolla) with shims and buckets.

It specifies a 90,000 mile interval for valve checking and adjustment, IIRC. I did that twice on the 2006 Corolla we once owned.

So, while crowing in this thread about his superior timing chain, he has withheld the fact that his engine does NOT have hydraulic lash adjustment (like many engines with timing belts ) and requires several hundreds of dollars of valve clearance checking and adjustment every 90,000 miles.

The timing belt is a much easier procedure.

Costs less, too.
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Apparently not true as these checks have never been done...I guess my car is a miracle...
 
Astro14 said:
Ironically, @grampi the thread starter has a car (2004 Corolla) with shims and buckets.

It specifies a 90,000 mile interval for valve checking and adjustment, IIRC. I did that twice on the 2006 Corolla we once owned.

So, while crowing in this thread about his superior timing chain, he has withheld the fact that his engine does NOT have hydraulic lash adjustment (like many engines with timing belts ) and requires several hundreds of dollars of valve clearance checking and adjustment every 90,000 miles.

The timing belt is a much easier procedure.

Costs less, too.
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do you know if the shim is over or under bucket?

I cant imagine that pedestrian mill needing under, but dont know and am curious.

Nothing makes an owner shiver and a shop smile more than the description " shim under bucket " - well possibly the term "desmodromic"....
 
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grampi said:
Apparently not true as these checks have never been done...I guess my car is a miracle...
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Your failing to follow Toyota‘s recommendation doesn’t change the design of your engine.

It should have been done on your shim and bucket engine three times by now.
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My 4 Runner (3.0 3VZE) was both a timing belt and shim engine.

Both were 90,000 mile intervals. It was a lot of work as the plenum had to come off to get to the valve covers and the WP, complete intake, and all the accessory drives had to come off to get to the timing belt.

Huge pain. Likely thousands if I had paid a shop.

The 2006 Corolla wasn’t bad. Shims were on top, I think. Special tool to compress the valve springs and the slide out the shim. Mic it. Do the math, then buy the replacement.

At 180,000 miles, a couple of the 4 Runner exhaust valves were tight by .001 to .002. So, I replaced those shims.

At 120,000 miles, the Corolla measured out fine.

But a tight exhaust valve is a concern, too tight, and it’ll get hot, burn, and you’ve got to do a head rebuild in that case.
 
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