Why does conventional oil still exist?

[turtlevette]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
I've switched to full synthetic because I've heard people say it's less likely to cause sludge and varnish. It's mainly the varnish that I'm afraid of because I change my oil way too often to worry about sludge. From what I gather, synthetic is conventional oil that's been processed further to make the molecules more uniform in size; meaning: they're like having a bunch of ball bearings close to being the same size as opposed to the sizes being all different. Now of course, the perfect synthetic oil would have all the molecules the exact same size and shape; we're not there yet.






Nope.

In fact the varying molecule size is actually better because modern machining techniques don't create a perfectly flat surface. Under magnification there are hills and valleys on machined surfaces,so 1 single molecule size doesn't fill all the voids which translates to less effective lubrication.
However if the molecules are varying in size larger ones will fill larger valleys and the smaller ones fit into the smaller valleys.
So Sorry merk. Your wrong on this one.
Regardless of what the advertising claims and what those pretty(useless) pictures show.


I'm gonna nope to your nope. Which bitog expert did you get this from?. I've only known you to regurgitate info from that group

 

[ExMachina]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
.
I'm gonna nope to your nope. Which bitog expert did you get this from?. I've only known you to regurgitate info from that group


Its funny to hear that different sized molecules fit into different sized machined surfaces.
The scale differences are actually like a hiker (hydrocarbon molecule) on Mt. Everest. A midget hiker or Shaquille O'Neal is gonna look about the same compared to Everest. Maybe Clevy is referring to moly or hexagonal boron crystalline particles fitting in there, as they have been know to fill machining marks and other asperities.

 

[KrisZ]

Unless there is hard evidence that synthetic oil extend engine life by X amount of miles, I hardly doubt that all fleet managers, oil change places and owners will switch to synthetic.
Where is the incentive other than reported improved sleeping habits?

 

[fdcg27]

For 95% of the cars on the road, a conventional oil is all that's needed. If an engine won't tax a conventional oil on the recommeded drain intervals, then there's no advantage in using a syn.
Those who spend time here and follow the deals can use syn oil for the same or less cost than dino. We typically do our own work.
Those who rely upon third parties for maintenance are not about to pay 3X the cost for a synthetic oil change.
Those who buy a jug of oil only when they need it to do the job DIY are also not likely to pay 2X the cost to use syn oil.
Conventional oil does the job and there is nothing to indicate that using it compromises engine life in any way.
Me?
Well, I've got a huge stash of cheap or even free syn.
If I didn't, then that buck ninety nine Formula Shell from Menards might look pretty good.
The nine buck jug of M1 from Meijer after MPerks discount and MIR looks even better, though, but you have to have planned to have the M1 on hand when you need it to realize this kind of cost advantage.
Synthetic oil need not cost any more than conventional. Whether it's really any better in a typical engine in typical use is another matter.

 

[virginoil]

Originally Posted By: wemay
Because it works, and works darn well.


Good answer Wemay. The oil justifies itself.

 

[SLATRON]

Originally Posted By: slacktide_bitog
Most if not all API SN "conventional" actually has some group III in it, so almost all PCMO is at least a syn blend.

 

[mjoekingz28]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
For 95% of the cars on the road, a conventional oil is all that's needed. If an engine won't tax a conventional oil on the recommeded drain intervals, then there's no advantage in using a syn.
Those who spend time here and follow the deals can use syn oil for the same or less cost than dino. We typically do our own work.
Those who rely upon third parties for maintenance are not about to pay 3X the cost for a synthetic oil change.
Those who buy a jug of oil only when they need it to do the job DIY are also not likely to pay 2X the cost to use syn oil.
Conventional oil does the job and there is nothing to indicate that using it compromises engine life in any way.
Me?
Well, I've got a huge stash of cheap or even free syn.
If I didn't, then that buck ninety nine Formula Shell from Menards might look pretty good.
The nine buck jug of M1 from Meijer after MPerks discount and MIR looks even better, though, but you have to have planned to have the M1 on hand when you need it to realize this kind of cost advantage.
Synthetic oil need not cost any more than conventional. Whether it's really any better in a typical engine in typical use is another matter.









Ninety-five percent?



You don't say!

 

[WankelRotorHead]

More than anything, I think oils are coming closer and closer to "merging". The performance difference between group II, III, and even IV is getting very narrow. Many new cars at a minimum require a group II and III blend, and more and more are requiring a full synthetic (being at least group III). Still there are plenty of cars that still use conventional so as long as there is a market, there will product. But I think we will continue to see a transition towards more synthetic and less conventional on the shelves.

 

[ChrisD46]

In a properly maintained engine with an OCI of less than 5,000 miles - would a synthetic oil provide a cleaner engine than say PYB , VWB ,Castrol GTX , Mobil 5000 , QSAD , etc. in the same grade and rating (i.e. 5W30 SN / GF-5) ? I would like to think internal cleaning would be close UNLESS you encounter stop & go traffic in July Phoenix where the conventional oil might suffer from a lower flashpoint which could cause sludge to form ...Your thoughts ?

 

[jdavis]

Originally Posted By: ChrisD46
In a properly maintained engine with an OCI of less than 5,000 miles - would a synthetic oil provide a cleaner engine than say PYB , VWB ,Castrol GTX , Mobil 5000 , QSAD , etc. in the same grade and rating (i.e. 5W30 SN / G5) ? I would like to think internal cleaning would be close UNLESS you encounter stop & go traffic in July Phoenix where the conventional oil might suffer from a lower flashpoint which could cause sludge to form ...Your thoughts ?


Good question, I've wondered the same as I do 5k OCI on all my vehicles and they use full syn and fram ultra filters..

 

[ExMachina]

Originally Posted By: ChrisD46
In a properly maintained engine with an OCI of less than 5,000 miles - would a synthetic oil provide a cleaner engine than say PYB , VWB ,Castrol GTX , Mobil 5000 , QSAD , etc. in the same grade and rating (i.e. 5W30 SN / GF-5) ? I would like to think internal cleaning would be close UNLESS you encounter stop & go traffic in July Phoenix where the conventional oil might suffer from a lower flashpoint which could cause sludge to form ...Your thoughts ?

Synthetic oil never has the same grade & rating. Synthetics will typically have performance levels at SN, plus 4718M, dexos1, HTO-06, ACEA A1/B1 etc., and as far as MB229.5, A40, etc. , all meaning they have been shown to produce less deposits in real engines run in those tests. Oil still has to encounter combustion high temperatures on the cylinder walls, and the stabler basestocks allow for less breakdown of the oil.

 

[InvalidUserID]

Good, Better and Best.

For some people, good is good enough. My father is an example.

 

[mark pruett]

Here's the thing- for pretty much all drivers, save those few that actually tear their engines down and go after them with micrometers, any claims of longer life or higher performance* are essentially unprovable.

Even for a car that makes it to 300k, you can't definitively point at the oil and say "Yes! It was the synthetic that did it!" The oil's just one piece of that puzzle, and other factors may have been more important. Anything else is essentially faith in the oil companies' marketing and propaganda.

Perversely, the flip side is true with many people- they don't go with higher OCIs because they bought into older propaganda and don't trust any oil to actually do a 10-15k OCI.

So for the vast majority, the cheap stuff does the job just as well (as far as they can tell) as the expensive stuff, and they're skeptical of the higher cost vs. benefits of the synthetic stuff.

It's the same exact thing as organic produce- some people take it on faith that organic carrots are better for you, without any actual proof, and are willing to pay more for them. Others don't care, and buy the regular stuff for 1/2 the price.

 

[Eosyn]

Originally Posted By: mark pruett
Here's the thing- for pretty much all drivers, save those few that actually tear their engines down and go after them with micrometers, any claims of longer life or higher performance* are essentially unprovable.

Even for a car that makes it to 300k, you can't definitively point at the oil and say "Yes! It was the synthetic that did it!" The oil's just one piece of that puzzle, and other factors may have been more important. Anything else is essentially faith in the oil companies' marketing and propaganda.

Perversely, the flip side is true with many people- they don't go with higher OCIs because they bought into older propaganda and don't trust any oil to actually do a 10-15k OCI.

So for the vast majority, the cheap stuff does the job just as well (as far as they can tell) as the expensive stuff, and they're skeptical of the higher cost vs. benefits of the synthetic stuff.

It's the same exact thing as organic produce- some people take it on faith that organic carrots are better for you, without any actual proof, and are willing to pay more for them. Others don't care, and buy the regular stuff for 1/2 the price.


Great explanation. In terms of organic produce, I would still be considered a non-organic (dino) user which costs less than organic (synthetic). Which in theory means I won't have as many miles in me before I'm in the junk yard (grave).

 

[alarmguy]

Originally Posted By: Eosyn


My question is: why is conventional oil still available? thoughts?




Why?

1. Because both oils are conventional oils
99% of the "synthetic" you buy at big box retailers Autozone, Walmart etc. Is conventional oil with an extra refining step that makes it behave like a true synthetic.

So your "Fully Synthetic" oil is plan old conventional oil in the United States where an oil called "Fully Synthetic" is just conventional oil that will perform like synthetic.

2. Both oils meet the same API standards.

3. There is no proof you are getting less engine wear using an oil called synthetic vs an oil called conventional. Of the few synthetics vs oil lab tests, many conventional oils will beat synthetics when it comes to wear, but true, many synthetics will rank higher then many conventionals but by no means all, it depends on brand.

4. Massive marketing, smoke and mirror, unfound half truths by the marketing department of these companies make HUGE profits selling you massive markup conventional oils labelled "Fully Synthetic" and 97% of the public is clueless.

5. The above statements do not mean I think its a waste of money to buy conventional oil labelled synthetic. Since the oil is refined an extra step, alot of the bad stuff (along with some good stuff) is removed from the oil, so the oil will be more stable, less likely to form sludge and can be left in the engine a little longer possibly.
However if you change your oil on time, it will not matter AND if you are following your owners manual on what oil to use 95% or more of the time, you will find conventional oils tested and approved to meet the same standard and tests of the conventional oil called "Fully Synthetic"
Meaning there is no benefit using synthetic labeled conventional oil.

 

[alarmguy]

Originally Posted By: BikeWhisperer
More than anything, I think oils are coming closer and closer to "merging". The performance difference between group II, III, and even IV is getting very narrow. Many new cars at a minimum require a group II and III blend, and more and more are requiring a full synthetic (being at least group III). Still there are plenty of cars that still use conventional so as long as there is a market, there will product. But I think we will continue to see a transition towards more synthetic and less conventional on the shelves.


I like that "merging" idea you have. I agree, and then we will no longer have to debate conventional oil or "Fully Synthetic" oil which is just plain old oil made to act like a real synthetic.
We will be back to the old, which company makes the best oil, which is what we should be doing even now because many people buy synthetic oil at the stores thinking it is better based on the words Synthetic but many Conventional oils from companies perform better then some of those Synthetics.

Quite honestly we are splitting hairs, as any API rated oils now, synthetic labeled or conventional need to pass the same test for the API label.

 

[alcyon]

Originally Posted By: alarmguy


I like that "merging" idea you have. I agree, and then we will no longer have to debate conventional oil or "Fully Synthetic" oil which is just plain old oil made to act like a real synthetic.
We will be back to the old, which company makes the best oil, which is what we should be doing even now because many people buy synthetic oil at the stores thinking it is better based on the words Synthetic but many Conventional oils from companies perform better then some of those Synthetics.

Quite honestly we are splitting hairs, as any API rated oils now, synthetic labeled or conventional need to pass the same test for the API label.

Better still, if EVs can really take off with lower costs,we will stop cracking our heads over oils. Then we can have a new forum called BITBG.

 

[dblshock]

API SN .79 per qt. 7500 OCI, that's the benchmark of motor oil value.

 

[BigD1]

"Why does conventional oil still exist?"

So I can sit on that big knot in my back pocket called a wallet!

 

[WiskyBadger]

It exists still cause fellas like me dont mind 4k-5k ocis for $13. Thats with a filter.