Why Do Foreign Cars Hold There Value

[rg200amp]

Originally Posted By: kingrob
Originally Posted By: rg200amp
Top 5 sellers of all time in the world.

The number one seeling car in the world is the Toyota Corolla. Followed by the Ford F-series pickups, Then The VW Golf, Then the VW Beetle, then lastly the Ford Model T.


That source is ten years out of date. Here is the current standings:

1. Toyota Corolla
2. Ford F Series
3. VW Golf
4. VW Beetle
5. Ford Escort
6. Honda Civic
7. Ford Model T
8. Nissan Sunny/Sentra/Pulsar
9. VW Passat
10. Lada Riva

Incidentally; the Mustang is the best selling Sports Car of all time.

Best selling 2 Seater is the Mazda Roadster/Miata.

Best single-year sales - 9,395,118 - 2004 Ford F-150 (23 years in a row as the top-selling single vehicle, 28 years as the best-selling truck in the USA).

Best-selling American Sedan - Ford Taurus (more than 7,000,000 sold in 4.5 generations sold between 1986 and 2006).

Best Selling Minivan - Dodge Caravan, over 11,000,000 sold.





I was close!!!!

 

[XS650]

Originally Posted By: Bror Jace


I just read through this thread and it appears a few people are saying there never was a quality problem with the domestic manufacturers ... just a perception problem. It's thinking like that which allowed the Big 3 to bury their heads in the sand and get us to where we are today.


This is like a football game, it takes the cheerleaders longer to figure out their side sucks than it does for the players getting run over on the field to figure it out.

 

[PT1]

I have owned GM, Nissan, Mazda and Toyota vehicles over the past 30 years and by far had less trouble with the Toyota brand. The Nissan brand was next with only 1 lemon out of 7. The 1 Mazda was a lemon and Mazda was no help. Of the 5 GM vehicles...2 had bad engines, and one (the last one) had a bad engine & drive axle and 9 other issues. The 2006 GM truck was of such poor quality I traded it after 2 years 40k miles and lost $30,000 in value

. SO I am 100% Toyota now and will stay there until I have a reason to switch.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
I'd just like to point out that the fact that a car has a big following does not mean the car is good, nor does it mean the company is good at building cars. It just means the car is at least decent, and easily accessible.

Most generations of Mustang are [censored]. I'm sorry, but it's true. They are fun in a straight line on a dry road, cheap to buy, (usually) cheap to maintain, and VERY easy to make fast, but ultimately they are primitive machines that are nothing truly special to drive -- i.e. they give you nothing you couldn't get from another car that is better in other ways.

Other examples of popular-does-not-mean-good: Liberty, Escape/Mariner, PT Cruiser, Caliber, H2, etc.


The Mustang exudes a certain "feel" that draws people to it. They are fun, simple, fast, VERY easy to make faster, and reliable.

Fox body Mustangs had horrendous suspension. The Mustang II; Pinto based was an abomination. The SN95 was much better. The S197 is better still.

But the feeling you get in a Fox, when driving, is rivalled by few other vehicles. Anybody who's owned a V8 Fox likely knows what I'm talking about.

A car does not have to be "superior" in every class to be a good car. Making it FUN makes it attractive to people. And they ARE.

I have a friend with a 525RWHP 91 Fox notch. I've never been in another car that has felt as scary, yet fun, at the same time.

It's a feeling, that, unless you've experienced it, you simply won't understand it, so there's no way I can properly explain it. The fact of the matter is though, that there are a LOT of people out there who can relate, and it's why the cars continue to sell, why they have the following they do, and why they have their own racing league (NMRA).

I would not put any of the other vehicles you cited as being in the same class or popularity category as the Mustang. Not even CLOSE. The closest I can think of would be the GM F-body guys or the Civic.

 

[Volvohead]

I'd like to add that there are differing concepts of what constitutes "value". It's not just street demand, mass perceptions and what folks are willing to pay for a used vehicle. Value can mean something else.

Some vehicles are more durable than others. Reliability is a great thing, and the perception of reliability certainly makes a car more desirable. But durability is different from reliability. It's a bit subjective, but I look at basic structural design cues and assembly (including welds and fasteners), paint and exterior trim finishes, interior material wear and even small things such as door hinges and switch gear on older cars in assessing durability. It has little to do with features or performance.

A car that exhibits durability is real value to me, and runs separate from the market demand for a vehicle. Most folks don't keep their cars over 100k miles. The market doesn't necessarily value durability, despite what Volvo and MB say. But I value it.

I've found that some European makes are perhaps less reliable than a domestic (certainly less so than the top Japanese makes), but they are more durable. Some are near the bottom of the JD power rankings for new car "quality". But they are typically less worn on average after 100 or 150k miles. To me, they are "holding their value" under that standard, even though they may not be "worth" much more than other vehicles in the marketplace.

Yes, it's subjective. And I'm not overlooking that a domestic of the same mileage/age may still run. But I've owned high mileage domestics, equally well maintained, and there was a difference. Yes, European cars may cost more initially, and there may be the reason, in better quality materials (and more expensive parts) and more extravagant engineering.

 

[Win]

The Honda I had was not a lemon, it was just a really bad car. I would have gladly traded it for a Vega.

 

[Win]

Originally Posted By: JMHC
There are far more 10 year old Camrys and Accords on the road than Imapalas, Tauruses, and Intrepids.


Most of the smokers I see on the roads around here are old Honda's by a large margin. Old Toyos, Chevy's, even Mopars, they may look like heck, but I don't see many of those smoking.

Smoking was the last straw with my Honda - after less than four years and about 70K miles, it was a mosquito fogger.

When it ran.

 

[brianl703]

That may well be why I don't see old Hondas around here much. This area is subject to emissions testing. You cannot get a repair waiver for visible smoke. (I've also heard--but not confirmed--that if it fails an emissions test here in Northern VA, you cannot register it anywhere else in the state (even those areas not subject to emissions testing) until it passes an emissions test.)

Plus I imagine they're real fun to work on to correct any other emissions problems, what with the (seems like) 1/2 mile of vacuum lines under the hood.

 

[rationull]

Originally Posted By: Win

Smoking was the last straw with my Honda - after less than four years and about 70K miles, it was a mosquito fogger.

When it ran.


Out of curiosity, what model/year was this Honda?

 

[Win]

'79 Prelude with the dreadful CVCC engine and styling to gouge your eyes out over.

If it could rust, rot, rip, bend, break, leak, squeal, or just fall off, it did.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Win
'79 Prelude with the dreadful CVCC engine and styling to gouge your eyes out over.

If it could rust, rot, rip, bend, break, leak, squeal, or just fall off, it did.


Sounds like my buddy's '88. Burned more oil than gasoline.

 

[Win]

It was a character building experience.

I vowed I would never own a car like that again, and I never will.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Win
It was a character building experience.

I vowed I would never own a car like that again, and I never will.


I've never owned a Japanese car. Driven plenty of them, but never owned one.

 

[rationull]

Interesting. Until now I actually didn't know the Prelude went back that far.

My dad had an '83 Civic that also ended up smoking pretty bad, but I think it got up to 180k miles or so before it was retired. We also had a couple domestics (one Ford and one Chevy) that ended up as smokers at the end of their lives.

I don't really see many newer smokers at all so I assume better fuel injection and emissions equipment is helping all makes with that issue. Or maybe I'm just not looking hard enough.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: rationull
Interesting. Until now I actually didn't know the Prelude went back that far.

My dad had an '83 Civic that also ended up smoking pretty bad, but I think it got up to 180k miles or so before it was retired. We also had a couple domestics (one Ford and one Chevy) that ended up as smokers at the end of their lives.

I don't really see many newer smokers at all so I assume better fuel injection and emissions equipment is helping all makes with that issue. Or maybe I'm just not looking hard enough.


Newer smokers:

Caravans
Intrepids
Caddy's with the Northstar

Those are the ones I've seen the most of.

 

[brianl703]

Originally Posted By: rationull

I don't really see many newer smokers at all so I assume better fuel injection and emissions equipment is helping all makes with that issue. Or maybe I'm just not looking hard enough.


Another possibility is that emissions testing is making it difficult or impossible to drive a smoker in many areas (legally, anyway).

 

[rationull]

Originally Posted By: brianl703

Another possibility is that emissions testing is making it difficult or impossible to drive a smoker in many areas (legally, anyway).


Yeah that's got to have an effect. Pretty strict emissions laws in CA so I'm used to that But you're right in that it doesn't necessarily mean newer cars don't start smoking.

 

[Bror Jace]

Win, that's pretty funny that you had to go back to 1979 (about 30 years) to find an example of a real clunker Honda. It sounds to me like you are cherry picking anecdotal evidence to support your bias against the marque.

In case you don't know, Hondas are much better now than they were in the 70s.

Anecdotal evidence like that which you cited is all around us. I constantly see 8-12+ year old Civics that smoke. Of course, they are owned by kids and women, people who are obviously doing little, if any, maintenance on the car. The cars I'm talking about are also banged up and often filled with clutter to the point of nausea. Clear signs of neglect and even outright abuse.

Hondas are excellent ... just not perfect.

I have a group of friends and we have owned Civics for the past two decades ... easily several vehicles and together we've probably logged a million miles on the cars. All have been vault-solid transportation with only occasional problems along the way ... and almost all of those have been well past the 100,000 mile mark when you should not be surprised if you have to replace a major component every few years.

Oh, and despite 200,000 miles on a couple of them, only one smoked. It was a 1st Generation Integra, actually, and it was clearly abused and must have had a broken oil control ring and I have not seen this problem on any other Honda. The car ran well, but once it had seen over a dozen winters on our salt-encrusted roads, it had rusted so badly that my friend donated it to the Kidney Foundation. The kid that came to get the car was surprised to know that it ran fine and actually burned a little rubber on his way out of the driveway.

I DO NOT regularly see Chevy Cavaliers and Ford Escorts of the same vintage any more. I can only assume that they've been taken off the road and (hopefully) recycled.

 

[Win]

Originally Posted By: rationull
Interesting. Until now I actually didn't know the Prelude went back that far.


The original Prelude was basically a late 70's version of the Accord with a trunk. While the Accord was a clean looking car, the first Prelude was an insult to good taste, and was probably styled by the guys that did Mothra after an all night bender. The abysmal quality just made owning a really ugly car even worse. This thing was so ugly that it made some of the Datsuns of the day look downright elegant.

In hindsight, I don't know what I could have been thinking of - it must have been the I'm in college gotta have a trendy Honda kool aid that was strong even then. In contrast, the Toyotas of that era were great cars - rear wheel drive and some even had genuine pizzaz, unlike the front wheel drive snoozers they slap together today. Mazda's were also hideous, but at least they were fast while the rotary engines ran.

 

[rationull]

Yeah, my dad had a '79 Accord for a while, I really liked the looks of that generation. I had never seen a 1st gen Prelude until your comment made me look up the car on Wikipedia though and I gotta agree it's pretty ugly