They seemed the best equipped to go up against Toyota, why did they show such promise in the beginning and turn into nothing but a has been (typical at GM at the time), was GM's management really that bad in the 80's---? Seems like the idea was right but that GM basically ignored the entire brand until it was to late, am I crazy or did Saturn have potential to take on Toyota?
Why did GM let Saturn go?
- Thread starter zach1900
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Always wanted one of the Sky's--the body lines were incredible. I am surprised that another line did not pick it up.
Actually Saturn did really well early on when corporate left them alone and let them be different. But they couldnt leave well enough alone and changed the formula.
One of the reasons was non-negotiate price, it turned-off a lot of potential buyers, also the reliability wasn't as good as Honda and Toyota.
They never hit their target of 500, 000 cars per year.
While Saturn "did really well early on when corporate left them alone and let them be different," they forgot to do one thing: Make money.
Here is an article from Fortune in 2004. It's kind of curious to look back at as a retrospect...
http://archive.fortune.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2004/12/13/8214222/index.htm
One standout quote:
Quote:
In all, GM has probably plowed a grand total of $15 billion into Saturn--and the division has not earned a dime. Even for a company of GM's size, $15 billion is a lot, and it's money the company can ill afford to waste.
That's why GM pulled the plug on Saturn. From the beginning, all the way to the end, it lost money.
The article goes on to note that GM sunk another $3 billion into folding Saturn's product line into the GM portfolio, while keeping the Saturn retail experience customers loved. Whatever good that did.
Saturn folded because GM didn't need them. They didn't need more brands to waste money on supporting, they needed better cars for their core business.
Here is an article from Fortune in 2004. It's kind of curious to look back at as a retrospect...
http://archive.fortune.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2004/12/13/8214222/index.htm
One standout quote:
Quote:
In all, GM has probably plowed a grand total of $15 billion into Saturn--and the division has not earned a dime. Even for a company of GM's size, $15 billion is a lot, and it's money the company can ill afford to waste.
That's why GM pulled the plug on Saturn. From the beginning, all the way to the end, it lost money.
The article goes on to note that GM sunk another $3 billion into folding Saturn's product line into the GM portfolio, while keeping the Saturn retail experience customers loved. Whatever good that did.
Saturn folded because GM didn't need them. They didn't need more brands to waste money on supporting, they needed better cars for their core business.
One automotive reporter described the engine noise as 3 bolts in a vibrating beer can while making a reference to their engine casting method. Maybe GM tried too much technology, too soon.
Maybe GM tried too much technology, too soon. [/quote] Sounds like the 1971 Vega engine to me.
GM failed Saturn.
It was a great concept. They had planned to steadily improve the quality, driving experience, keep using unique building techniques... Maybe it could have someday been a Toyota fighter.
GM didn't stay on script for it
The S-series was a uniquely Saturn vehicle. There wasn't a Chevrolet or Pontiac that shared it's platform. You looked at an S-series and you knew it was a Saturn. (until the '95 Sunfire...Pontiac kinda' ripped off the S-series design) But they couldn't ride that platform forever. Little more than a decade later and it was just restyled Cobalts and Equinoxes (Equinoctes?) You look at the Ion and go, "What is that? It has a center cluster like a Toyota but it is too ugly to be a Toyota. What is that thing?"
When my wife and I first got together, she had an SC2 and I had an EH9 Civic EX sedan. The Civic was definitely the more refined of the two. The Civic was also quicker but the SC2 was easier to drive quickly. The Civic was highly dependent on keeping the engine revved high enough to stay on the big intake lobes. Drop out of the VTEC and you are about as powerful as a 1.5 Mirage. The 1.9 had a much wider powerband. If you shortshifted the Saturn? No problem. It'll go. Not as fast as you wanted it too but it'll go. it was actually a fun car.
The plastic body had a knack for amplifying road noise. It is incredibly durable. You can tell which panels on an S-Series are plastic and which are metal following a hail storm. If the plastic panel didn't shatter, it would be fine. Try to find a door ding on a wrecking yard S-series. You can't! And if you do, that door ding would have caved in an entire Corolla door
It was a great concept. They had planned to steadily improve the quality, driving experience, keep using unique building techniques... Maybe it could have someday been a Toyota fighter.
The S-series was a uniquely Saturn vehicle. There wasn't a Chevrolet or Pontiac that shared it's platform. You looked at an S-series and you knew it was a Saturn. (until the '95 Sunfire...Pontiac kinda' ripped off the S-series design) But they couldn't ride that platform forever. Little more than a decade later and it was just restyled Cobalts and Equinoxes (Equinoctes?) You look at the Ion and go, "What is that? It has a center cluster like a Toyota but it is too ugly to be a Toyota. What is that thing?"
When my wife and I first got together, she had an SC2 and I had an EH9 Civic EX sedan. The Civic was definitely the more refined of the two. The Civic was also quicker but the SC2 was easier to drive quickly. The Civic was highly dependent on keeping the engine revved high enough to stay on the big intake lobes. Drop out of the VTEC and you are about as powerful as a 1.5 Mirage. The 1.9 had a much wider powerband. If you shortshifted the Saturn? No problem. It'll go. Not as fast as you wanted it too but it'll go. it was actually a fun car.
The plastic body had a knack for amplifying road noise. It is incredibly durable. You can tell which panels on an S-Series are plastic and which are metal following a hail storm. If the plastic panel didn't shatter, it would be fine. Try to find a door ding on a wrecking yard S-series. You can't! And if you do, that door ding would have caved in an entire Corolla door
I just read a Newsweek article that stated Honda and Toyota were initially worried, but in 1990 Honda and Toyota engineers bought Saturns and disassembled them, they basically laughed and that was that...then came the 1992 Civic and Corolla.
In my mind,there is nothing to "miss" about Saturn.Loud,coarse engines,typical GM alternators and transmissions,huge plastic body gaps,severe underbody rust that has sent most to the scrapyards,oil burning,seats so low you are sitting on the floor,one dealer or so per state (really helps out service).At most they had a loyal fanbase,a unique plant location at Spring Hill,they could brag about the plastic panels,and the no haggle pricing.When GM couldn't make any money off it,the line became another Pontiac/Buick/Olds nosejobbing corporate products.Frankly,the American market didn't need Saturn.
I had a 2003 saturn ion with a stick shift.
It was a very good car.
Keeping a car rust free when I lived in NY was a pain in the rear. The car was plastic, I loved it.
Mine never had any problems, never burned oil (ecotec engine). I never did anything to it besides regular maintenance.
There was no saturn dealer here but GM did all the work on the car.
It was a very good car.
Keeping a car rust free when I lived in NY was a pain in the rear. The car was plastic, I loved it.
Mine never had any problems, never burned oil (ecotec engine). I never did anything to it besides regular maintenance.
There was no saturn dealer here but GM did all the work on the car.
They were a one hit wonder with the first gen S-series which were designed from ground up as new cars. However they let it grow too long in the tooth...It great for early to mid 90's but everyone else moved forward and past it.
THe VUE was nothing great in first gen really dreadful. My MIL has that cheap/awful car and I despise it with a coarse 4 cylinder motor(I hope not the eco-tec people rave about as its miserable).
The balance of products were take an existing platform slap a badge and plastic panels on a car and hope folks buy in. Did not really happen.
Bye bye.....
THe VUE was nothing great in first gen really dreadful. My MIL has that cheap/awful car and I despise it with a coarse 4 cylinder motor(I hope not the eco-tec people rave about as its miserable).
The balance of products were take an existing platform slap a badge and plastic panels on a car and hope folks buy in. Did not really happen.
Bye bye.....
Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
Always wanted one of the Sky's--the body lines were incredible. I am surprised that another line did not pick it up.
The Sky was a badge-engineered Pontiac Solstice.
Neither badge sold well although they were available pretty cheaply as leftovers at the end.
No two-seater is a fully practical car, but a two seater in which the entire trunk is taken up by the top roll and the fuel tank is even farther away from practicality.
I agree that these are attractive cars and either would make a fun good weather commuter and weekend car.
Always wanted one of the Sky's--the body lines were incredible. I am surprised that another line did not pick it up.
The Sky was a badge-engineered Pontiac Solstice.
Neither badge sold well although they were available pretty cheaply as leftovers at the end.
No two-seater is a fully practical car, but a two seater in which the entire trunk is taken up by the top roll and the fuel tank is even farther away from practicality.
I agree that these are attractive cars and either would make a fun good weather commuter and weekend car.
Originally Posted By: supton
I have not forgiven GM for killing Saturn. The car may not have been much, but I liked the retail model. Had they put marginal amounts of money in the brand would have done ok.
So, $15 billion wasn't marginal? I mean, I'm no finance guy, but that seems like a lot of money to invest...a lot more than "marginal"...
I drove a coupleof early Saturns - coarse engine, so-so dynamics, loud, clunky ride...made the Yugo look nice...
The S series was a good car. Even test drove it with a friend and was impressed. Close to the Accord (which he ended up buying)
But nobody was buying them...they were just sitting on the lots.
Blame the consumer. Who never really warmed up to Saturn in any numbers.
I have not forgiven GM for killing Saturn. The car may not have been much, but I liked the retail model. Had they put marginal amounts of money in the brand would have done ok.
So, $15 billion wasn't marginal? I mean, I'm no finance guy, but that seems like a lot of money to invest...a lot more than "marginal"...
I drove a coupleof early Saturns - coarse engine, so-so dynamics, loud, clunky ride...made the Yugo look nice...
The S series was a good car. Even test drove it with a friend and was impressed. Close to the Accord (which he ended up buying)
But nobody was buying them...they were just sitting on the lots.
Blame the consumer. Who never really warmed up to Saturn in any numbers.
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Saturn was something that could have worked If executed correctly but gm was who did the executing and that's mostly why it didn't work..and let's face it, it is a very tall order to build a brand new car company and be profitable all the cost to just get going and to engineer a car. And a lot of people didn't want to take the risk of buying a saturn when they could buy something with a household name like ford Chevy Toyota. I loved all my old Saturn's and I now have the focus but if I found a white hot red hot or a bubble bee or even a homecoming edition I'd buy it in a second.
IDK about the undercarriage, I got rid of a 19 year old wagon that still had its original brake lines. Lots of cars up here need lines at around 8-10 years. They also never have rocker panel problems, a good mix of plastic and good design. The first sign something's amiss is when the subframe rots out. Ironically, it's under the battery, so the acid gets it, but if the car could have just leaked oil on *that side* it would have been free rustproofing.
Volvo is about the only make that I've been under that rusts less.
I'm sure GM had tons of inside politics and accounting gimmicks. Selling saturns at a loss or break-even let them make $15k on every Tahoe and Escalade thanks to CAFE. They could have, and probably did, set Saturn adrift.
The 90s were cool because they only had s-series sedans, so you could option them the way you liked and the engineers paid attention to them. In a way, it was kind of like Hyundai or Subaru, in that a limited lineup meant more luxury "down low". Chevy wouldn't make a Cavalier all that nice because you were supposed to buy a bigger Monte Carlo if you wanted doodads.
The VUE was kinda cool and the platform eventually morphed into the equinox. The ION and van were pretty dopey. The L-series was forgettable. The Euro captured imports (Astra, Aura) were a niche thing but never sold well.
I just bought a couple well worn s-series. There's something about the no-haggle pricing, after all these years, that compels sellers to accept my first, low, offer.
I'm sure GM had tons of inside politics and accounting gimmicks. Selling saturns at a loss or break-even let them make $15k on every Tahoe and Escalade thanks to CAFE. They could have, and probably did, set Saturn adrift.
The 90s were cool because they only had s-series sedans, so you could option them the way you liked and the engineers paid attention to them. In a way, it was kind of like Hyundai or Subaru, in that a limited lineup meant more luxury "down low". Chevy wouldn't make a Cavalier all that nice because you were supposed to buy a bigger Monte Carlo if you wanted doodads.
The VUE was kinda cool and the platform eventually morphed into the equinox. The ION and van were pretty dopey. The L-series was forgettable. The Euro captured imports (Astra, Aura) were a niche thing but never sold well.
I just bought a couple well worn s-series. There's something about the no-haggle pricing, after all these years, that compels sellers to accept my first, low, offer.
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