Why are European cars so problematic?

[dishdude]

Originally Posted By: Win

My conclusion is that modern vehicles from all continents are vastly improved over vehicles made just a couple of decades ago.


This is my experience also. You always run the risk of getting stuck with a dud, but the odds are way against that if you buy new and take care of it.

 

[Nyati]

Originally Posted By: Trinh

That is the most ridiculous thing I have heard today and also ignorant/racist.


Racist? Is being American a race now?

 

[xfactor9]

Originally Posted By: Trav
I honestly believe its the poor choice of lubricants in the US by some owners determined to save a buck using non approved lubes and additives along with guys working on them essentially breaking more than they fix.


I don't think the presumed unreliability has to do w/ lubricants because most of the problems I've heard of or seen had nothing to do w/ the engine or motor oil. They were either fuel system or electrical related.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted By: Cujet


Remember that the plastics and rubbers used on European vehicles is of a recyclable nature and does not hold up well in hot conditions.

You know it's bad when suspension bushings and engine mounts just "disappear" on European vehicles.


This is very true. Euro governments have required that wire insulation be biodegradable. Adhesives are sub-par for North America climate. The Euro marques are generally needlessly complex, their design philosophy is completely opposed to any suggestion of high post warranty reliability. Alas, people still buy these cars. Our family has almost 20 yrs of German cars.


US euro cars are generally initially sold as leases and this attracts the "I couldn't be bothered with maintenance" buyer.

Finally with luxury marketing comes big engines to justify the price. Yet the US driving style (low engine speeds, high idle times) wrecks havoc on these big engines. It's a catch 22. People who can afford and want these cars generally live in dense urban areas.


Fwiw BMW has made significant strides in cooling system reliability beginning with the Bangle era cars and ZF has their transmission issues pretty much worked out.

Now I've had my diesel at the dealer twice within 3 months to replace failed parts related to the diesel exhaust system. These parts should not fail at 57k miles. Not in today's world. Thank god for the OEM extended warranty.

 

[mormit]

Current stable of Volvos:
'85 240 303K original engine, tranny, FI system, has survived a few accidents well.
'02 S40 routine maintenance only. Hit by a bus last year and fixed on the bus company's dime. Zero issues looks/drives like new.
'13 XC60 Expecting many years.

I do all my own maintenance and consider myself on the lazy side of upkeep. I go to a shop only when it's tire or alignment time but I do the rest.

Taking a Volvo/Merc/BMW to a shop just makes them assume you like to spend money. I don't.

I also do not want to waste my time doing repairs. My cars have my back on that point.

 

[MCompact]

In my 30 years of experience with BMWs as daily drivers, I've found that simpler is better; a 3 series, naturally aspirated, with RWD. A good dealer or indie shop also makes a huge difference. My BMW dealer performs excellent work and charges @40% less than neighboring dealers. My Mazdaspeed required more repairs in its first 60,000 miles than my 3ers and X3 put together. At 159,000 miles the X3 has required one major repair while my Club Sport track rat has 131,000 miles on the clock and has only needed a thermostat, a heater hose fitting and consumables such as a serpentine belt, brakes, and tires.

I perform oil changes myself at @7,500 miles and then use the dealer for the services that the SI or CBS calls for. And-since I don't have any car payments-I think I still come out a bit ahead.

In any event, I'll likely be replacing the Mazda when I fully retire this year-I want something that's actually fast and a bit more fun-and that car will almost certainly come from either Munich or Zuffenhausen.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Trav
You can still buy a new E class over there with a 4 cyl diesel, 6 speed manual, cloth interior and no frills, basically a modern 240D on steroids.

They need that here. I'd probably buy one tomorrow!

 

[Norm Olt]

"racist" = sexist =just not sufficiently pc to pass muster...

This thread should have been titled "Why are MODERN/NEW cars so problematic?"

It has almost gotten to the point where almost any new purchase/lease is probably a "while still under warranty ONLY" proposition as far as I'm concerned.

Personally the hassles involved in repeated warranty claims can approach the significance of who's actually gonna' end up paying? Well, almost...

Cheers!

 

[hattaresguy]

European manufactures like to break new ground and do things their own way. Sometimes it works, other times it doesn't.

Generally the higher end you go, ie with more stuff, the more you get breakage.

 

[Trav]

Very true! The more gee whiz stuff the more can and usually does go wrong.
They say if you want to see what will be standard on all cars in 10 year look at todays new S class.
I don't know if I would go that far but they do get pretty innovative.

Most cars sold in Europe generally have far less gizmo's than those sold in the US where buyers of just basic grocery getters expect touch screen navigation and power everything.

Give me a MB 4cyl turbo diesel with a stick, those wear like iron cloth seats, A/C, rear defroster, am/fm radio and I'm a happy camper.

 

[hattaresguy]

The S class is typically 10-20 years ahead of the average $20k sedan.

For example I heard that you can get radar cruise control on the Accord now. The S class had this back in what 03?

I'd have no problem buying a new E250CDI RWD base car and keeping it 10-15 years or more. Very simple, and DIY friendly. But something like a new loaded AWD S550 or Audi S8. Heck no, lease and dump.

 

[antiqueshell]

Originally Posted By: Trav


You can still buy a new E class over there with a 4 cyl diesel, 6 speed manual, cloth interior and no frills, basically a modern 240D on steroids.
A good well built, long life, low maintenance daily driver.


And even in the USA there is STILL a sizable market for a car like this, the problem is that the marketing morons and bean counters at MBUSA have taken control and the only thing they care about is maximizing greedholder profit.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
Originally Posted By: Trav


You can still buy a new E class over there with a 4 cyl diesel, 6 speed manual, cloth interior and no frills, basically a modern 240D on steroids.
A good well built, long life, low maintenance daily driver.


And even in the USA there is STILL a sizable market for a car like this, the problem is that the marketing morons and bean counters at MBUSA have taken control and the only thing they care about is maximizing greedholder profit.


Many claim that those of us who do desire those cars are not plentiful enough or at least refuse to put our money where our mouths are. I think that's an engineered problem, if it exists at all. Vw can't seem to keep mt tdis on the lot...

 

[Trav]

If it (E class) was offered in the US I would write the check today.

 

[Vikas]

Quote:
the problem is that the marketing morons and bean counters at MBUSA have taken control and the only thing they care about is maximizing greedholder profit.
Is there anything wrong with that? Or are you suggessting MBUSA do the stuff for the "greater good of the society"?

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted By: Vikas
Quote:
the problem is that the marketing morons and bean counters at MBUSA have taken control and the only thing they care about is maximizing greedholder profit.
Is there anything wrong with that? Or are you suggessting MBUSA do the stuff for the "greater good of the society"?
Hehe. Some people think car companies should act like non-profits.

On a side note I saw an opinion that generally the Euros engineer for performance and new tech whereas the Asian marques improve the new tech and reliability.

 

[antiqueshell]

Originally Posted By: Vikas
Quote:
the problem is that the marketing morons and bean counters at MBUSA have taken control and the only thing they care about is maximizing greedholder profit.
Is there anything wrong with that? ?


Yes, there is. Because that short sighted business strategy is going to kill the goose that laid the golden egg.

I'm not talking about charity and you know it.

What I am speaking of is only caring about short term profits that are at the expense of long term health of the company and quality of the products produced. If you start cutting enough corners you will eventually destroy the reputation of the products and company. Actually MB started to roll down hill around the late 90s when they started going away from their solid reputation for quality and solidity, and have drifted to style and gadgetry.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
Originally Posted By: Vikas
Quote:
the problem is that the marketing morons and bean counters at MBUSA have taken control and the only thing they care about is maximizing greedholder profit.
Is there anything wrong with that? ?


Yes, there is. Because that short sighted business strategy is going to kill the goose that laid the golden egg.

I'm not talking about charity and you know it.

What I am speaking of is only caring about short term profits that are at the expense of long term health of the company and quality of the products produced. If you start cutting enough corners you will eventually destroy the reputation of the products and company. Actually MB started to roll down hill around the late 90s when they started going away from their solid reputation for quality and solidity, and have drifted to style and gadgetry.
And when customers start walking they will change. The fact remains that with all their problems over the years the Euros have grown market share and/or continue to sell a ton of cars.

 

[antiqueshell]

Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl
And when customers start walking they will change. The fact remains that with all their problems over the years the Euros have grown market share and/or continue to sell a ton of cars.



BMW is making some pretty serious junk when it comes to reliability and durability over the past few years now. Plastic this, that, and everything. Not to mention over complexity. But I understand the game is now to get the product to fall apart so that repairing it is not practical from ownership aspect, instead they want to force you to buy another one entirely and very early on at that. LOL Yep, those folks have more money than sense.

They have been for some time in the USA. Even in Europe Lexus, Infiniti, and others have been gradually eroding market share slowly but surely. Their caving into US style obsession with greedholder profits will eventually kill them if they continue.

Don't get me wrong, I used to really love European cars but as of the past decade or so the love is gone because of this disposable trend.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl
And when customers start walking they will change. The fact remains that with all their problems over the years the Euros have grown market share and/or continue to sell a ton of cars.



BMW is making some pretty serious junk when it comes to reliability and durability over the past few years now. Plastic this, that, and everything. Not to mention over complexity. But I understand the game is now to get the product to fall apart so that repairing it is not practical from ownership aspect, instead they want to force you to buy another one entirely and very early on at that. LOL Yep, those folks have more money than sense.

They have been for some time in the USA. Even in Europe Lexus, Infiniti, and others have been gradually eroding market share slowly but surely. Their caving into US style obsession with greedholder profits will eventually kill them if they continue.

Don't get me wrong, I used to really love European cars but as of the past decade or so the love is gone because of this disposable trend.
I tend to agree but TBH the E90 as a whole was much more reliable than the E46 or E36. No failing transmissions, cooling systems, window regulators, creaky door seals, rear sub-frame failures (E46 & E36), final stage resistors, etc. Sure the HPFP fiasco with the N54 power plant was a disappointment but not surprising. Timing chain guides with E36 should have been recalled for example, S54 bearing problem with e46 M3, Oil passage problems with e39 m5, Litany of electrical problems with pre-Bangle 7 series.

With all this BMW had record sales.