Why are European cars so problematic?

[coachditka]

Originally Posted By: Trinh
Originally Posted By: dishdude
Originally Posted By: Trinh
Originally Posted By: Chris142
It does seem that Americans buy expensive cars then dont want to pay the price for proper lubes and repairs. It is common at my shop to have a snowball effect on European cars. Touch one thing and 3 unrelated things break before it gets out of the door.

That is the most ridiculous thing I have heard today and also ignorant/racist. Answer me this: why are audi/VW CONSISTENTLY at the bottom of Consumer Reports' reliability surveys? Poor engineering and quality. It took them until 2013 to finally gain some ground. Were BMW's notorious fuel pump problems due to "lack of maintenance"?

No one is bemoaning maintenance and repair bills, the proper context is during the lifespan of the automobile. You shouldn't have to fork over MAJOR repair money at fewer than, let's say, 50,000 miles.

I would argue the posters who have experienced few problems are the exception, not the norm.


Racist? Where did you get that from? This entire thread is ridiculous.


Why does he assume they're Americans? Why not Asian or European owners?



It's not ridiculous. I was really wondering why Euro cars seem to be more problematic than their [censored] and American counterparts.

Why do BMW radiators fail at 50k? Why did the 1st gen XC90 shred transmissions? Why do VW's seem to have more electrical gremlins? And Land Rover in general? The Euro cars drive and perform great, but the housekeeping on them is a pain.


Our V50 grocery getter and kid hauler should not have had all suspension components replaced under 60k miles. I would expect a sport sedan that is driven hard to have more suspension issues, but a daily driver..no way.

 

[Dufus2]

I own a MB diesel and its a great car to drive. I am in agreement with the others who said people do not do the proper maintenance or think the discount fluids from AAP or Autozone is acceptable. I live in a small town and not one shop in this town will work on this Benz. I was told "we have a guy who knows a little about a diesel." These guys have little training and experience on non-US models, this is part of why repairs are more expensive.

I am in the process of getting all the approved fluids such as Zerex G-05 coolant. Just changed out the Power Steering fluid with a Febi product. Pentosin brake fluid over the stuff sold in auto store. Transmission is spec for Dextron-IID and looking into Valvoline Full synthetic for import cars.

There was a study that reported US fluids do not meet the warranty requirements of European vehicles. Info from Amsoil.

In this global economy, everything is getting made cheaper to require replacement within 5 years as dictated by the accounting cycle.

 

[eljefino]

I had a 91 volvo 940 wagon for a couple years. Sold it for more than I put into it. It was a well engineered car. Was impressed that fasteners weren't rusted and came apart after 22 years of salt. Was impressed that the fuel and brake lines were all original too. But since I did my own work, I didn't hate the car. Examples:

-- Car had an $80 "two pin connector" blower motor. A $13 "one pin" motor also existed-- it grounded through its case. I made a slight wiring mod and installed the cheaper fan.

-- Fuel relay conked out. Known issue. Figured it out with online forum help and my own savvy. Instead of buying the cheap part, I pried the old one apart and resoldered its hairline solder cracks.

-- Blower motor resistor fuse blew. Official fix was an $80 blower resistor pack. I soldered in a fuse from an old coffee pot.

-- Overdrive solenoid conked out, locking out overdrive. Removed it, gutted it. OD was then permanently enabled; I could not manually hold 3rd. A better option.

The headliner did get loose; I removed it permanently. The power locks, windows, and sunroof all worked flawlessly. The motor and tranny were perfect with 235k miles on them. It had enormous room in the back for my big dog and a weekend's worth of stuff. I'd get another if they made them to this (former?) standard.

 

[fdcg27]

I have two old BMWs, one of which is in my sig and neither is anywhere near falling apart.
The e36 in particular is a very well built car.
We've had two gas and two diesel Benzes, and they were also very durable overall.
We've had one VW, an '81 Vanagon and it was as reliable as any good hammer.
Too much talk here and elsewhere about how troublesome Euro cars are without enough ownership experience to back that talk up.
Those who find Euro cars troublesome would probably find any car of any country of origin to be the same.

 

[Chris142]

I agree with the VW and electrical problems. I see that often with non functioning AC systems and every BMW that comes into my shop rattles like a 73 Chevy pickup.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: Dufus2
I own a MB diesel and its a great car to drive. I am in agreement with the others who said people do not do the proper maintenance or think the discount fluids from AAP or Autozone is acceptable.

Our MB has been rather problematic through its short life, despite being serviced by the book at the MB service dept. It needed a new transmission at only 60K miles, and it's a well known problem. It also needed a bunch of other stuff, and is currently in service yet again due to broken right rear view mirror.

 

[michaelluscher]

Ahh the quirky euro paradox

It's not like the 'estics or 'anese don't have there own problems **Cough VillaQuest Cough**
It's all unfortunately true...

 

[andyd]

yah, pretty much agree. But serviceability has slipped on later models. I put 200 k more miles on my first 528e. !2 yrs without a breakdown. I maintained it in my driveway. Complexity and gadgetry will keep me away from later models. A water cooled alternator? Way beyond my wants and needs

I have changed the oil on my Daughter's '06 Corolla,since day one and done the front brakes. It got its first service by a shop at 150 k miles. I spent 20 minutes figuring out how to get the gizmo off the plug to change it.Pulled the plug,it was fine.
They are amazing appliances. But soulless. The Borman 6 had soul. My current 528es are way more fun to drive in the twisties.

 

[Rolla07]

I know 2 ppl who had to get rid of vw's because they spent more time in the garage than on the road. Friend ditched his lexus for a Q7, and its been back to the dealer about 9 times in a month. Poor design, and just not reliable vehicles. A radiator shouldnt need to be replaced. I make fun of my friends who drive mercedes, bmw, audi, vw and the like when they tell me about the problems and things they need to do on their cars. If you buy one you have to have the wallet to support your repairs and dont forget about time...replacing a rad at 50k? Great thats one thing i likely wont ever require replacing...if you wana buy a european car and spend to maintain and repair go for it...but dont complain because its a well known fact they will need more repairs than other vehicles. Another problem is that most rich people lease cars and abuse them heavily and than you end up buying their nightmare.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Any survey based service shows the same: Euro cars are less reliable compared to Japanese cars, period. I use http://www.truedelta.com to compare different cars and the differences are very obvious.
My family in Europe swear by VW, Audi, and MB cars, yet at the some time some of them make a living fixing turbos/pumps/injectors that fail in high mileage Euro cars all the time.

 

[jimbrewer]

Originally Posted By: Trav
I don't understand it. In Germany we drive the cars hard (not beat them) and get hundreds of thousand out of them without much fuss.
I honestly believe its the poor choice of lubricants in the US by some owners determined to save a buck using non approved lubes and additives along with guys working on them essentially breaking more than they fix.

I never saw or heard of so many problems with German cars until I came here. To hear some of these guys on forums talk Germany and whole Europe for that matter must be literally littered with broken down cars.
I see many MB diesel cars with a million km on the clock still running like a champ.
Strange how the Police cars get 300K on them without being in the garage every week.

I do have one observation though. American drivers seem to treat German cars either like glass or they beat the living daylights out of them on the track, neither is good for them.
Drive them like a Chevy and use the correct lubes, service them properly with quality parts and they wont break.


A North American Volks is nothing like a German Volks. For the North American market, VW does whatever it has to do to hit its price/profitability targets. Cheapest possible materials used. So, things like the solenoids on the seats can be expected to fail. Its sort of like 1970's early 1980's GM all over again.

Yes, VW requires exacting maintenance by today's standards but that's not the whole story.

European models tend to be high-end and therefore more complicated. More parts = more opportunity for failure.

Finally, I think we tend to drive more in more variable conditions than Euros. I have driven in -20 and + 107 on the same oil change.

 

[Spazdog]

Originally Posted By: nleksan

The fact is, BMW's at least are extremely reliable, more so than any American car I've owned. You simply have to be attuned to the car's needs, and preventative maintenance is absolutely essential. You wait until a part breaks, aka you "repair" rather than "maintain", and costs will get sky high very quickly. Taking it to the dealer for anything, combined with following recommended parts service intervals, is THE recipe for ridiculously expensive ownership.


Funny thing. Virtually every BMW that comes into my shop with over 60,000 miles has a check engine light on and the maintenance minder indicates that it is well past its last service.

There is a 2002 7-series with about 175,000 miles. Beautifully maintained...I've seen the receipts. It has not been cheap to do so. As much as he has spent some months, he could have a newer 7-er, but he doesn't like them. He likes his. More power to him.

Another is a 220,000+mile 318ti. Runs perfect. Looks perfect.

The rest? Not so good.

A simple cooling system problem on one of the rare 60,000+ mile E93s without a check engine light on ran itself into the $1000s real fast.

The rest of my BMW owner client's cars are mechanical time bombs. It is just a matter of time before they need $1000s of dollars in repairs

Admittedly, a lot of it is the owner's fault. But it does seem like your average Yaris or Civic owner goes a lot further with minimal maintenance before their cars become timebombs.

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted By: nleksan


...The fact is, BMW's at least are extremely reliable, more so than any American car I've owned...
For example, I don't just replace a radiator with a new OEM one; I go with a CR/Zionsville radiator, new Stewart EMP pump, metal thermostat housing w New motorsports thermostat, Samco Sport 7-ply silicone hoses for the entire system, and so forth. Or, when the factory suspension is up, I drop the entire suspension and most of the drivetrain, inspect every single main component and upgrade as needed, replace every single bushing/bearing/mount w AKG/TMS/Powerflex ones, front/rear lower control arms replaced with rear adjustable TMS units (front are Meyle HD or ZHP w serviceable ball joints), Hotchkis sways and adj endlinks, weld in subframe reinforcements, add Mason Engineering front and rear strut braces w the rear X-brace (tying thettowers to the subframe, distributing load across 6-8x greater area), and switch to extremely high quality coilovers instead of struts/shocks and spring combos (KW V2/V3/Clubsport, TC Kline D/A, or for track use, Moton/Ohlins/JRZ 3-/4-way adjustable units; the bodies are stainless steel and on top of that treated to further eliminate the chance of rust, the shocks are fully serviceable, and most have lifetime warranties including free rebuilds and steeply discounted revalving costs).


I'm sorry but I must be missing something here. In your BMW's, not only you overhaul complete systems because one component failed, but you also have to upgrade to better aftermarket parts and you call it more reliable than anything American made? What kind of twisted logic is that?
Now, I'm not trying to say anything negative, or positive here as I never owned a Euro marque. I'm just making an observation and reading some of the responses trying to put Euro ownership in the positive light, I just don't get a warm and fuzzy feeling about it.

Saying that most American owners "just don't get it" is kinda funny to me. What's there to get? That "preventive maintenance" includes total cooling or suspension overhaul? Well, I would hardly call that normal when others makers can do it properly.

 

[Subdued]

I found that post completely ridiculous as well.

How would he know how reliable his car really is? He just replaces stuff that isn't broken.

 

[Jarlaxle]

All service my Magnum needed in 88,000 miles. All was done by the dealer.

Warranty:
4 new wheels (finish flaking off), ~12K
Replace rear window (defroster feeding into stereo), ~20K
Adjust driver's door (really-annoying wind whistle), ~6K
Adjust parking brake (they may have replaced the cable), ~15K

Non-warranty:
LF wheel speed sensor, ~70K, $85.

Service: Full brake job (pads all around, front rotors), ~35K, $650. (Ouch!)
Swaybar links & bushings, ~75K, $100. (Rest covered by extended warranty...thanks, Mass. Highway!)

Maintenance:
Oil (Mopar 5W-20) every 6K.
Plugs x2 (35K, 65K)
Trans fluid/filter (30K)
Coolant change (60K)

As I recall, that's it! Car had its original water pump, serpentine belt, all accessories, all hoses, rear rotors, and battery when sold.

 

[Spazdog]

In 105,000 miles, my PT Cruiser has received:

Warranty:
Rack and Pinion replaced because the dealer said it was "leaking". It never required a drop and left nothing on the garage floor but they said it was leaking and gave us a loaner. Charged us $90 to properly align it afterwards. Kind of a long way to go to sell an alignment. Got another loaner.

Maintenance:
Oil and filter changes. Mostly Motorcraft FL400S and Quaker State Synthetic
Plugs. Original Champions had some serious gap erosion by 12,000 miles (yikes!) NGK V-power are the replacements on Mopar Stage II kit so I have been using them since.
New plug wires
Mopar ATF+4 every 30,000
OE front brake pads lasted almost 70,000 miles. Rear probably would have gone 80,000
Timing belt, tensioner, idler, water pump, and fresh G-05 at about 85,000 miles. Maintenance only. did not need a water pump.
Valve cover gasket at about 100,000.

And this is not just a Chrysler, it's a turbo Chrysler. Popular internet wisdom would have you believe that Chryslers are junk and this car should have died 50,000 miles ago.

 

[CBR.worm]

I've had very good and very bad vehicles from America, Japan and Germany. My luck overall has been that Japanese are the least problematic and German are the best to drive (for me). I will say that our '08 BMW 5 series has required only a warrantied battery and mostly free oil changes to get to it's current 70k. There is currently an outstanding recall for a tail light socket, but when we are ready to do it they will come pick up the car and give us a loaner - as they do for the oil changes.

My '06 infiniti FX45 has needed more work, but much was also covered under warranty - and all were trim/aesthetics issues - it currently has about 105k on it. Overall maintenance costs have been higher than the BMW. It goes through pads and rotors about every 20k and batteries about every 40k. Has more fluids to change and calls for more frequent changes.

My gut feeling is that the FX will be reliable longer than the BMW, but so far the BMW is winning in the cost to own category.

I have had a bunch of Toyota's that were trouble free for many miles, and I had one that the tranny replacement at 89k (at 5 years of age) was the last straw in a long list of expensive problems.

I had a '91 escort go 200k with minimal repairs, and an '89 Oldsmobile with the famed 3800 V6 that we got rid of at 50k due to the insane number of repairs req'd between 36k and 50k.

There are good and bad examples of almost every vehicle on the road, but there are definitely trends that should not be ignored.

Also, reliability and low maintenance costs are not always the number one priority for many people. I expect reliability, but many people are ok with their cars being in the shop as long as they get (X) out if it, be it towing a big trailer, low 1/4 mile times, interior volume, styling, the ability to drive through snow better than others, excellent cornering, soft ride, etc.

 

[nleksan]

Okay, I can understand why people who don't modify cars, don't track their cars, would not see the logic behind what I do.

That said, the older Bimmers I have? They are on the same "no failures" list, and they are almost/completely stock.
Sure, if a part is known to be troublesome, it's upgraded, but I fail to see howtthat's any different than "Total Recall", err, Toyota... I just prefer to use parts that I knowto be built well bbeyond the quality of anything coming out of any auto manufacturer's line. Plus, at the end of the day, 90 ppercent or more of the individual parts on my cars carry their own, unique lifetime warranties.

Pay once, and never fail? Or multiple trips with huge labor charges? I chose what makes sense to me.

 

[Whitewolf]

Originally Posted By: Trav
I don't understand it. In Germany we drive the cars hard (not beat them) and get hundreds of thousand out of them without much fuss.
I honestly believe its the poor choice of lubricants in the US by some owners determined to save a buck using non approved lubes and additives along with guys working on them essentially breaking more than they fix.

I never saw or heard of so many problems with German cars until I came here. To hear some of these guys on forums talk Germany and whole Europe for that matter must be literally littered with broken down cars.
I see many MB diesel cars with a million km on the clock still running like a champ.
Strange how the Police cars get 300K on them without being in the garage every week.

I do have one observation though. American drivers seem to treat German cars either like glass or they beat the living daylights out of them on the track, neither is good for them.
Drive them like a Chevy and use the correct lubes, service them properly with quality parts and they wont break.

I think you are correct.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Everyone these days is heavily influenced by the Internet. This provides way too much chatter about the BAD cars while John Q. Public is simply driving his and not posting.

I have owned a total of five German cars, and I found them too expensive to own IMO. Higher initial costs, higher maintenance costs, and higher repair costs. I know many other experienced folks who would agree, many who still own one or more due to the extremely high quality driving experience.

My lowly Chrysler has been a rock, with over 200 dragstrip passes and many many road course track days at tracks all over the US. Nothing but fluids, tires, and brakes. But others can tell horror stories about the exact same model.

And finally, every single car mfgr makes an occasional lemon. Every single one.