Why 10K Miles Oil change may not be good!

[sk_pete]

Lots of videos from master techs discussing this.

Here's a couple.

less saps, longer interval.
what could go wrong

TGMO uses very light bases and massive amounts of VII, I wouldn't consider it a premium offering by any stretch. M1 EP and others like it are considerably more robust.

Piston cleanliness is a targeted, and tested parameter, and the API limits, historically, haven't been overly stringent:
View attachment 110428

they guarantee it at 100hours..... that is waaaay less than 10000miles imho.

10K miles for OCI, who does that!??

my car book has it as severe service... normal is 15k
but i´m doin it 4k (and with fullsaps)

 

[OVERKILL]

less saps, longer interval.
what could go wrong

they guarantee it at 100hours..... that is waaaay less than 10000miles imho.

my car book has it as severe service... normal is 15k
but i´m doin it 4k (and with fullsaps)

It's not really a guarantee, just the parameters for the test (100 hours). But yeah, that's the API standard, and as you can see, a "pass" on that test doesn't mean clean pistons or ring lands, there's still massive room for improvement.

Edit:
Just checked my SRT, 10hrs on this last tank of fuel, which is 281km (100% in-town), so that would be 2,810km for 100hrs. If I were to check my wife's truck, this would be wildly different, since it gets a few long trips here and there. It can also give me total engine hours (the Jeep doesn't) which we could compare against lifetime mileage to get an average.

 

[DGXR]

I agree with the general idea in these videos: the manufacturer definitely wants to get through the warranty period because they are liable, and a little further to build/preserve their reputation for quality, and not much more... all while touting lower cost of maintenance. 10k service intervals on modern oils will accomplish this... and not much more.
I like the number crunching where the cost of an engine replacement is spread out over the number of oil changes the old engine received at 10k intervals, revealing that each oil change did not really cost $70, they were over $400 each due to the new engine needed. This really opened my eyes and I am thinking about shortening my service intervals a bit. My DIY synthetic oil changes with filter are about $25.

 

[bullwinkle]

I like how the YT guy picks possibly the worst Toyota engine ever made, the Camry sludger, to "prove" the point he's trying to make. Use quality synthetic (I tend to run M1 EP or M1 AP) if you're going to push it, don't run bulk dealer swill!

 

[Starman2112]

I like how the YT guy picks possibly the worst Toyota engine ever made, the Camry sludger, to "prove" the point he's trying to make. Use quality synthetic (I tend to run M1 EP or M1 AP) if you're going to push it, don't run bulk dealer swill!

And I like your use of hyperbole to make your point.

 

[OVERKILL]

It's not really a guarantee, just the parameters for the test (100 hours). But yeah, that's the API standard, and as you can see, a "pass" on that test doesn't mean clean pistons or ring lands, there's still massive room for improvement.

Edit:
Just checked my SRT, 10hrs on this last tank of fuel, which is 281km (100% in-town), so that would be 2,810km for 100hrs. If I were to check my wife's truck, this would be wildly different, since it gets a few long trips here and there. It can also give me total engine hours (the Jeep doesn't) which we could compare against lifetime mileage to get an average.

Alright, have some additional data:
Truck:
Idle hours: 297
Drive hours: 1563
Total hours: 1860

Mileage: 61,234km
So, that's ~33km per hour, so 100 hours is 3,292km, so higher than the Jeep.

 

[The Critic]

Absolutely, and that's really where the basic API approvals likely aim to get you.

I wasn't even referring to boutiques, just oils like M1 vs Supertech for example. Even in the mainstream, there can be significant differences in performance of the finished product depending on the internal targets set by the blender. When I was talking to Dave at @High Performance Lubricants about some of this, he remarked that they internally tested/benchmarked Mobil 1FS 0W-40 and he was blown away by how good it was, let alone at the price point Mobil sells it.

The slides I posted from Mobil in one of those linked threads illustrates that too, even relative to their own products that "meet the spec", their Mobil 1 product offerings are held to a higher standard for performance.

So, I'd say there's some "truth in advertising" with regards to some of the claims from Mobil and Shell about their premium offerings and the performance they provide.

Not saying there aren't differences between approved oils, but overall, the variation in performance is a fairly small window.

 

[OVERKILL]

Not saying there aren't differences between approved oils, but overall, the variation in performance is a fairly small window.

Not sure that's true, if the oxidation limit is 100% and Mobil targets 10%, that's a relative chasm. Same with some of their slides that show API approved oils against Mobil 1:

Now, of course, depending on the application, these results may not be wholly applicable, but it definitely should cause one to take pause. The API bare minimums can certainly be improved upon, even within the confines of their approval system. The Euro approvals set the bar even higher of course.

Not to try and build myself an echo chamber, but this is one of the reasons I'm a big fan of the Full-SAPS approach to AW formulation. These products were simultaneously held to very strict standards on wear control, deposit formation and volatility, while still having the ability run the gamut on AW chemistry, as phosphorous wasn't restricted. Definitely not a the best choice for a GPF equipped TGDI engine, but for something with traditional catalysts, particularly if it is port injected, these would be hard to beat on those aforementioned parameters and I think that's relevant.

 

[The Critic]

Is that

Not sure that's true, if the oxidation limit is 100% and Mobil targets 10%, that's a relative chasm. Same with some of their slides that show API approved oils against Mobil 1:
View attachment 110725
View attachment 110726
View attachment 110727

Now, of course, depending on the application, these results may not be wholly applicable, but it definitely should cause one to take pause. The API bare minimums can certainly be improved upon, even within the confines of their approval system. The Euro approvals set the bar even higher of course.

Not to try and build myself an echo chamber, but this is one of the reasons I'm a big fan of the Full-SAPS approach to AW formulation. These products were simultaneously held to very strict standards on wear control, deposit formation and volatility, while still having the ability run the gamut on AW chemistry, as phosphorous wasn't restricted. Definitely not a the best choice for a GPF equipped TGDI engine, but for something with traditional catalysts, particularly if it is port injected, these would be hard to beat on those aforementioned parameters and I think that's relevant.

It may be significant in relative terms, but if the allowed oxidation is very small to begin with, then achieving 1/10th of the allowable limit may be a mute point.

It looks like that slide is comparing M1 0W-40 to a "market general full synthetic." If we are comparing M1 0W-40 to a Supertech 5W30 synthetic, I expect M1 0W-40 to do significantly better.

 

[OVERKILL]

Is that

It may be significant in relative terms, but if the allowed oxidation is very small to begin with, then achieving 1/10th of the allowable limit may be a mute point.

Oxidation is in percentages. It used to be 150% of virgin viscosity (increase from oxidation) and they reduced it to 100%. So if your oil is 8cSt @ 100C, it's allowed to go to 16cSt. Mobil limits their own product to only a 10% increase.

It looks like that slide is comparing M1 0W-40 to a "market general full synthetic." If we are comparing M1 0W-40 to a Supertech 5W30 synthetic, I expect M1 0W-40 to do significantly better.

Yes, exactly. So if we apply this more broadly I think it's easy to see how say M1 EP 0W-20 may perform markedly better in this department than Kirkland/Supertech 0W-20. I assume there are other areas that these more premium offerings do significantly better than their more "budget conscious" peers as well.

The API of course can't set the bar too high, as they are representing the oil industry. Killing Warren's ability produce an approved lubricant wouldn't bode well there for example. This is another reason I prefer ACEA and OEM approvals as they have no oil industry affiliation and their focus is on performance.

 

[WylieCoyote]

Brings up a interesting point though. 6month/5k. How do folks feel about annual oil changes and less then 3k miles?

The oil monitor in my garage queen calls for an oil change every year regardless of mileage (1,400 this last change). I think it's fine. But I have to toe the line until the warranty's up. $35 a year for oil maintenance is nothing. I may adjust when Ford no longer cares.

 

[TiGeo]

And for every one of these junk boxes…er…Jettas there’s one that had oil consumption issues.

Data or GTFO. Toyotas I see...so engaging driving experience isn't one of your needs.

 

[Starman2112]

Data or GTFO. Toyotas I see...so engaging driving experience isn't one of your needs.

And I see reliability means nothing to you with all those POS VWs.

 

[TiGeo]

And I see reliability means nothing to you with all those POS VWs.

3 in the driveway without any drama (ok...the B5.5 W8...well they're always drama haha). MK4 Jetta went to 220K in my ownership with only maintenance and minor/normal repairs. 2x stock power in my Sportwagen...thing runs and runs. Try again. TOyOtas ArE thE oNLY relIAblE caRs

In before

 

[Starman2112]

3 in the driveway without any drama (ok...the B5.5 W8...well they're always drama haha). MK4 Jetta went to 220K in my ownership with only maintenance and minor/normal repairs. 2x stock power in my Sportwagen...thing runs and runs. Try again. TOyOtas ArE thE oNLY relIAblE caRs

In before
View attachment 110746

Nice vehicles you have there. And I never said Toyotas are the only reliable cars. I get it, you don’t like them. To each his own.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

It's a better idea than 15K mile OCI's, the way BMW's used to be.

Actually it was the lesser of 1 year or an olm maximum of 15k miles? The olm could shorten the interval based on the operating environment.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Are there still OLM's which are programmed for 10k miles regardless of operating environment and time? If not then I have to question the validity of the video regardless of their credentials.

 

[aquariuscsm]

Is that

It may be significant in relative terms, but if the allowed oxidation is very small to begin with, then achieving 1/10th of the allowable limit may be a mute point.

It looks like that slide is comparing M1 0W-40 to a "market general full synthetic." If we are comparing M1 0W-40 to a Supertech 5W30 synthetic, I expect M1 0W-40 to do significantly better.

I agree. The M1 presentation would be more impressive if M1 was comparing their high end flagship oil against another high end flagship oil like Amsoil SS.

 

[Urshurak776]

I like how the YT guy picks possibly the worst Toyota engine ever made, the Camry sludger, to "prove" the point he's trying to make. Use quality synthetic (I tend to run M1 EP or M1 AP) if you're going to push it, don't run bulk dealer swill!

So, with the API SP rating, is there really "Dealer swill" out there? Wouldn't even the cheapest API SP oil (or even SN) still be fine for a reasonable OCI for most cars?

I mean, we're Unicorns here. What percentage of the population reads BITOG and thinks about the oil in their car? Unless I'm wrong, it's probably waaaaaaay less than 1%. Lots of Jiffy Lube stickers in the parking lot where I work.....

 

[Shel_B]

I agree. The M1 presentation would be more impressive if M1 was comparing their high end flagship oil against another high end flagship oil like Amsoil SS.

While I agree that such a comparison would be worthwhile, comparing the M1 to "regular" oil certainly has its.merits. think about how many people subscribe to the idea that if an oil "meets the spec" nothing more is needed.

OTOH, there are those who believe "good enough" is not good enough.