When is GM going to learn? (long)
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My bad, it was an 03G35 4dr, bought it new in 02.
I wouldnt put much faith in someones obeservations about corrosion when they live in
Florida, as I said the calcium chloride takes its toll and the imports from back when did not fair so well, guess we will see how the newer ones do in that regard. Note I see a lot of 8 yr old camrys and accords already showing the tell tail rust on the rear quarters bubling thru. Dont see that on the domestic stuff.
I wouldnt put much faith in someones obeservations about corrosion when they live in
Florida, as I said the calcium chloride takes its toll and the imports from back when did not fair so well, guess we will see how the newer ones do in that regard. Note I see a lot of 8 yr old camrys and accords already showing the tell tail rust on the rear quarters bubling thru. Dont see that on the domestic stuff.
VNT:
OK, to be perfectly clear: 1) I lived in salty New Hampshire for 20 years, so it's not as if I haven't seen for myself what the government's anti-ice chemical warfare does to cars (a memory erasing lobotmy is not required before you move here...). 2) Both my parents still live in Southeastern New Hampshire, and I visit them with some regularity, including during the winter, btw. I think this gives me a better perspective on corrosion. You guys have the anti-ice chemical element, down here, we don't. My observation is that corrosion is across-the-board a bigger problem for you than us. My step-mother's old Accord is the case that really gives me pause. They live on a part dirt/part paved road in the sticks. If things are as black-and-white as you and lght believe, then this car should have been totally gone, long before she traded it. But it was as solid as rock, with no signs of rust.
We've all done plenty of
in this thread, and I think we all understand each other's perspective. I really think there's a lot more going on than just whether a car was made here or there. Nature and length of exposure, whether combined with dirt (keeping it against the metal), frequency of natural or intentional rinsing, and so forth.
OK, to be perfectly clear: 1) I lived in salty New Hampshire for 20 years, so it's not as if I haven't seen for myself what the government's anti-ice chemical warfare does to cars (a memory erasing lobotmy is not required before you move here...). 2) Both my parents still live in Southeastern New Hampshire, and I visit them with some regularity, including during the winter, btw. I think this gives me a better perspective on corrosion. You guys have the anti-ice chemical element, down here, we don't. My observation is that corrosion is across-the-board a bigger problem for you than us. My step-mother's old Accord is the case that really gives me pause. They live on a part dirt/part paved road in the sticks. If things are as black-and-white as you and lght believe, then this car should have been totally gone, long before she traded it. But it was as solid as rock, with no signs of rust.
We've all done plenty of
Hi
NH isnt Maine.
And southern Maine isnt Arroostock County with its tote roads.
These are roads that are mud...not Florida "mud" roads...but real mud, much like the Wehrmacht faced in Russia.
Tell me, EK...do you have frost in Florida? We do and this year and it got down 8 feet.
When spring finally arrives, the end result is heaves in March that look like giant speed bumps - on main roads as well as back roads. Try hitting one of those at 65mph - Dukes of Hazzard anyone?
Back to the frost.. thawing it turns these roads (trails?) into DEEP mud..so DEEP that huge ruts soon form from first log trucks, and then as it becomes worse, skidders. Ruts so DEEP that they can be 12-16 inches DEEP. When these DEEP ruts freeze..they can inhale a car and you will be trapped as you would be what once was called "frame hung".
The trick is to navigate as close to the sides of the road as possible without slipping off..and as early or late in the day as possible for the evening freeze to set in.
Getting back to NH. Maine has the Gulf of Maine which tends to bring in more freezing percipitation. This means more..much more of the liquid brine treatment before the storm..as much as 24 hrs before.
As the spray is put upon the road surface, it soon drys as traffic moving across it provides a measure of air currents.
Two things happen.. the road surface turns white..as does the undersides of the cars. My lowly Olds is white from November through March.
The Camrys at work see the same conditions...roads and care as mine. The neighbor's actual white Camry has rust forming in it's doors weld seams, while my Olds has none..zip.
I think my 50 years of living and owning cars here gives me the betterperspective.
BTW, why is it that Maine used car dealers are always bringing used cars up from Florida...but the reverse dos not seem to be true?
NH isnt Maine.
And southern Maine isnt Arroostock County with its tote roads.
These are roads that are mud...not Florida "mud" roads...but real mud, much like the Wehrmacht faced in Russia.
Tell me, EK...do you have frost in Florida? We do and this year and it got down 8 feet.
When spring finally arrives, the end result is heaves in March that look like giant speed bumps - on main roads as well as back roads. Try hitting one of those at 65mph - Dukes of Hazzard anyone?
Back to the frost.. thawing it turns these roads (trails?) into DEEP mud..so DEEP that huge ruts soon form from first log trucks, and then as it becomes worse, skidders. Ruts so DEEP that they can be 12-16 inches DEEP. When these DEEP ruts freeze..they can inhale a car and you will be trapped as you would be what once was called "frame hung".
The trick is to navigate as close to the sides of the road as possible without slipping off..and as early or late in the day as possible for the evening freeze to set in.
Getting back to NH. Maine has the Gulf of Maine which tends to bring in more freezing percipitation. This means more..much more of the liquid brine treatment before the storm..as much as 24 hrs before.
As the spray is put upon the road surface, it soon drys as traffic moving across it provides a measure of air currents.
Two things happen.. the road surface turns white..as does the undersides of the cars. My lowly Olds is white from November through March.
The Camrys at work see the same conditions...roads and care as mine. The neighbor's actual white Camry has rust forming in it's doors weld seams, while my Olds has none..zip.
I think my 50 years of living and owning cars here gives me the betterperspective.
BTW, why is it that Maine used car dealers are always bringing used cars up from Florida...but the reverse dos not seem to be true?
My brother builds F-150s a the Ford plant in Norfolk VA (well, until 2008 anyway) and he's forever cussing me for buying "*** Crap". My sister finds him particularly funny with her 2001 Tacoma that's never darkened the door of the local Toyota service department for anything except new tires and brakes at 90,000 miles. He's pretty gutsy to condemn anyone considering my parents used his discount several times to buy Fords, and spent more than their share of time having them repaired or repairing them themselves. I've owned 16 vehicles, 3 of which were American and that was lesson enough for me. I don't have time to spend day after day at the service department, but that's where I found myself with my Ford Ranger and Oldsmobile Calais. My Plymouth Sundance was the exception, and was actually the best car I ever owned...but it had a Mitsubishi-sourced 3.0 V6 in it, which purred until the day I traded it at 86,000 miles. As for the numerous Hondas, Nissans and Mitsus I've owned, they have all been faithful companions until I get the itch to trade....and my itches will continue to lead me to Japanese makes. As for the Camaro argument, my roommate had a 1996 Formula Firebird, and OH WHAT A NIGHTMARE. It was fast and fun to drive, when it was running. There's a reason F-bodies are extinct...GM ran them into the ground with great hulking, poorly crafted bodies and bad electronics. I also worked in the parts department of a Pontiac / GMC / Olds dealer for several years....I know of what I speak. They really appreciated me reporting to work every day in my 1986 Civic Si. NOT.
If American auto makers would make a sincere effort towards quality instead of just selling crap at deep discounts, I'd look their direction again... but until then, Japan will continue to supply the cars I drive. (In my defense, speaking from experience, German cars have proven themselves to be generally lacking in the quality department as of late, too so it's not just American cars I discriminate against.)
If American auto makers would make a sincere effort towards quality instead of just selling crap at deep discounts, I'd look their direction again... but until then, Japan will continue to supply the cars I drive. (In my defense, speaking from experience, German cars have proven themselves to be generally lacking in the quality department as of late, too so it's not just American cars I discriminate against.)
DD: You fight that by not continuing to do things like Redneck described above. Sure, the wtys have to have limits, but when something happens in an engine that's an obvious quality problem, not simply a matter of having used the engine up, then IMO, a manufacturer that hopes to keep loyal customers needs to step up to the plate and at least help with the repair. GM sells the vast majority of those 60 deg V-6 equipped cars to hard working Americans most of whom don't have piles of money to throw around for unexpected, should-never-happen repairs. Maybe if the General had made taking care of its lifeblood (i.e. customers) a priority, folks would still be lined up at the Olds dealerships.
I'll honestly say that the original Aurora was WAY at the top of my "want" list. I drove one and loved EVERYTHING about it. That wonderful console shifter took me back to the days of the Chevelle SS. Big, comfy bucket seats with high quality leather. A back seat that I could slip into a coma in. A body that fell off the cover of Penthouse. An engine and exaust note that dreams were made of. (Go figure...DOHC 32 valve).
Then the horror stories started rolling in about frying alternators and locked up A/C compressors and I got cold feet about ever getting one. Such a shame...what a beautiful example of V8 luxury. Then, the obligatory face-lift a few years later that made it look like nothing more than a pregnant Intrigue. First-gen Auroras can be picked up for a song now, but I'm not that brave.
Then the horror stories started rolling in about frying alternators and locked up A/C compressors and I got cold feet about ever getting one. Such a shame...what a beautiful example of V8 luxury. Then, the obligatory face-lift a few years later that made it look like nothing more than a pregnant Intrigue. First-gen Auroras can be picked up for a song now, but I'm not that brave.
The "rednecked state" and distance yourself comments were directed towards what I sensed was an uppity air of (false) sophistication I see a million times in my area, adapted by transplants/expatriots from rural areas to large metro/suburban areas. I.E.; "I'm more sophisticated/metro, less redneck/backwater if I buy an import over a domestic "mullet-mobile".quote:
Originally posted by ScottB:
Distance myself? Dear sir, please, learn to read AND comprehend!
I'm a proud Montanan. I am simply trying to distance myself from the ignorant folks that blindly scream "buy American" and diss the Japanese at every turn - like yourself.
This board has a ton of bright and informative folks, but alas it has a big contingent of idiots too. Tons of threads slamming Japanese and "rice" comments. I'm merely trying to level the playing-field here.
I'll take my SCION any day of the year over your Camaro. Your reasons for it being superior make me laugh.
There isn't one reason you listed that mean a hill o' beans.
There's plenty of saggy-doored, rusted lumps that still "run" - congrat's!
It's too bad there's so many backwoods lunkheads here. The same folks run Ford and GM...
Scott [/QB]
I don't "diss" everything Japanese, I even give some of their cars/products much kudos, I just state that I could never bring myself to buy one. Also, I only talk about cars, I've never commented on/dissed the Japanese people
Of course, it's perfectly OK to blindly scream, "Buy Japanese/import" and BOMB/BLAST everything American, right?? I just don't see "tons of threads slamming Japanese/imports" on here. Quite the contrary, most threads/members slam everything domestic, so maybe I'm just trying to "level the playing field" and defend my country's products (that deserve it, from my experiences/observations).
I never claimed anything was "superior" to anything else. I was just giving reasons why I like/prefer my car according to my experience. I am sure you have your own reasons for loving your import (that BTW, would not mean a "hill 'o beans" to me!!). That said, I STILL could not drive anything that slow. I guess I just got too accustomed to the speed/power/handling/reliability of my "$h!tty GM product"! Oh yeah, it has sooooo much rust on it that it loses 10 lbs. every time I shut it's "sagging" to the ground doors.
It's six years old, and to this day, I still get comments on how great it looks, and that it cannot be that old (mostly from import/econobox owners, BTW).
Funny, my 2000 Z28 has 95K miles on it, has NEVER been back to the dealer, has never failed to start and run strong, never left me stranded, never needed more than wear and tear items, NO squeaks/leaks/rattles/oil consumption, and never delivered less than 30 mpg hwy./20 mpg city. Well hot damm, I must be the luckiest man in the universe, huh??
But no, wait, GM bashers hold onto your hats, there are plenty more out there, some with f bodies which are drag raced/autocrossed/road raced EVERY weekend and driven plenty hard in between. Many with up to 300K miles on them with this abuse (most over 120K miles). He!!, I've never seen so many "lucky" car owners in my life, since we all know GM is incapable of building anything even a tenth this strong/reliable, right?
Maybe all of us f body owners should get together and buy a pool of Mega Lottery/Powerball tickets, we couldn't lose, huh??
A GIRL I went to high-school with was only moderately hard on her 1987 Camaro, performed all scheduled maintenance and it routinely failed to start and run, burning more than a quart of oil every 1000 miles before it reached 100K. Between her experiences and my roommate's, I have a very hard time believing that none of your friends experience ANY problems with these cars, treating them as they did. Exaggerate much?
Yeah, I know what you're saying. In their eyes, that makes me a "racist/bigot/redneck"quote:
Originally posted by Racerjk:
Yeah, but that's different though.quote:
Originally posted by dailydriver:
Hey, if all of you (and most of this country for that matter) can refuse to buy domestic, I can do the same for imports/import nameplates.
In my experience, Japanese-Americans (never been to japan) are great people. I think that if you travel to any country, the indigenous people's are going to dislike outsiders and act that way. I wish we'd do more of that, frankly, because we're losing our heritage/histroy to politically correct idiots and illegals.quote:
Originally posted by dailydriver:
quote:
Originally posted by ScottB:
Distance myself? Dear sir, please, learn to read AND comprehend!
I'm a proud Montanan. I am simply trying to distance myself from the ignorant folks that blindly scream "buy American" and diss the Japanese at every turn - like yourself.
This board has a ton of bright and informative folks, but alas it has a big contingent of idiots too. Tons of threads slamming Japanese and "rice" comments. I'm merely trying to level the playing-field here.
I'll take my SCION any day of the year over your Camaro. Your reasons for it being superior make me laugh.
There isn't one reason you listed that mean a hill o' beans.
There's plenty of saggy-doored, rusted lumps that still "run" - congrat's!
It's too bad there's so many backwoods lunkheads here. The same folks run Ford and GM...
ScottThe "rednecked state" and distance yourself comments were directed towards what I sensed was an uppity air of (false) sophistication I see a million times in my area, adapted by transplants/expatriots from rural areas to large metro/suburban areas. I.E.; "I'm more sophisticated/metro, less redneck/backwater if I buy an import over a domestic "mullet-mobile".
I don't "diss" everything Japanese, I even give some of their cars/products much kudos, I just state that I could never bring myself to buy one. Also, I only talk about cars, I've never commented on/dissed the Japanese people! They seem quite alright, though it's convenient how no one ever calls them out on their inherent national bigotry/racism. It's also funny how they're inhumanity during the war is so readily forgotten (they rivaled/surpassed the Nazis in this area).
Of course, it's perfectly OK to blindly scream, "Buy Japanese/import" and BOMB/BLAST everything American, right?? I just don't see "tons of threads slamming Japanese/imports" on here. Quite the contrary, most threads/members slam everything domestic, so maybe I'm just trying to "level the playing field" and defend my country's products (that deserve it, from my experiences/observations).
I never claimed anything was "superior" to anything else. I was just giving reasons why I like/prefer my car according to my experience. I am sure you have your own reasons for loving your import (that BTW, would not mean a "hill 'o beans" to me!!). That said, I STILL could not drive anything that slow. I guess I just got too accustomed to the speed/power/handling/reliability of my "$h!tty GM product"! Oh yeah, it has sooooo much rust on it that it loses 10 lbs. every time I shut it's "sagging" to the ground doors.
It's six years old, and to this day, I still get comments on how great it looks, and that it cannot be that old (mostly from import/econobox owners, BTW).[/QB]
I'm proud of being a 6th-gen American. Proud of my Montana roots too. A family of hard-working people whom almost all bought American cars. They are rolling in their graves over the downfall of Ford/GM I reckon. No snob here.
If you really think your Camaro is "fast" then I think you should buy yourself a sportbike. I always get the Mustang 5.0's and Camaro/Firebird guys trying to race me. I just give them a few seconds, put up my visor, and then spank them in front of their girfriends! Now THAT'S entertainment!
Scott
Here, you'll really appreciate this analogy, that is comparing "apples to rice".quote:
Originally posted by ScottB:If you really think your Camaro is "fast" then I think you should buy yourself a sportbike. I always get the Mustang 5.0's and Camaro/Firebird guys trying to race me. I just give them a few seconds, put up my visor, and then spank them in front of their girfriends! Now THAT'S entertainment!
Scott [/QB]
It seems to me that the faster an engine turns, the more frictional losses there are to overcome.
Someone, I'm sure, will correct me if I'm mistaken about that.
I supose there is a perfect balance between the amount of frictional losses due to operation at high RPMs and the pumping losses due to operation at lower speeds with less loading due to a larger engine size.
If it wasn't burning oil, that might be a record. Those 3.0 V6 engines double as mosquito-foggers when they get enough mileage on them.
I used to see cars, mainly Dodge Caravans, with that engine leaving trails of blue smoke everywhere, but I haven't lately. Maybe emissions inspection programs actually do work.
That's a 3rd gen f body, we're talking 4th gen, specifically LS1 4th gen ('98-'02). Maybe we should go back to my neighbor's '69 rustbucket Corona that crumbled in his driveway at < 60K miles, since it's open season, it seems??
He's talking about a 2000 Camaro, you're talking about a 1987 Camaro.
I realize you don't think highly of GM, but is it possible that maybe they've improved them a bit in about 13 years?
That's good. My point was that when I want FAST I ride. When I want reliable, fun, good mileage, I take the SCION.quote:
Originally posted by dailydriver:
quote:
Originally posted by ScottB:If you really think your Camaro is "fast" then I think you should buy yourself a sportbike. I always get the Mustang 5.0's and Camaro/Firebird guys trying to race me. I just give them a few seconds, put up my visor, and then spank them in front of their girfriends! Now THAT'S entertainment!
ScottHere, you'll really appreciate this analogy, that is comparing "apples to rice".If you cannot annihilate 99.999% of all the cars on this planet on any decent >600 cc sport bike, than either you cannot (or should not) ride, or someone just overturned the laws of physics.I never have, nor will I ever say ANY sport bikes are slow, nor diss them, or ever fail to give them kudos (no matter what their country of origin).[/QB]
Either way, I'm happy.
And I don't bother with 600s - too small/slow. I'm 6-4, 245, so those scoot's won't haul my a$$ far!
Scott
You know, I was thinking: This is sort of how Mac users used to talk about how Intel-based PCs ran DOS as opposed to their superior MacOS. Even as late as 1999.
No concept that product improvements happen. Nope. They saw a 286 back in 1989 running MS-DOS 3.12 and that's how they think it is 10 years later.
No concept that product improvements happen. Nope. They saw a 286 back in 1989 running MS-DOS 3.12 and that's how they think it is 10 years later.
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