What's up with Mobil deserting the LL-01 market?

[Garak]

I saw a sale a bunch of weeks ago on the Pennzoil quarts, but haven't since then. I can't say I've seen the GC 0w-30 jugs on sale for a very long time. Shell must bring out 5 L jugs for their Euro stuff. Castrol and Mobil made us suffer long enough with 1 L containers. They figured it out. Now it's Shell's turn. I realize they have a shortage of 5 L ILSAC stuff on Canadian shelves.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Garak
I saw a sale a bunch of weeks ago on the Pennzoil quarts, but haven't since then. I can't say I've seen the GC 0w-30 jugs on sale for a very long time. Shell must bring out 5 L jugs for their Euro stuff. Castrol and Mobil made us suffer long enough with 1 L containers. They figured it out. Now it's Shell's turn. I realize they have a shortage of 5 L ILSAC stuff on Canadian shelves.

Here in Wal Mart they have Euro L 5W30 in 5qt jugs as well as 0W40.
However, based on PDS of Euro L, it is average oil at best, same as 0W40 and 5W40.

 

[Garak]

Average or not, if you want to compete, especially with few specials on 1 quart jugs, a 5 quart (or 5 litre) jug would be handy to have. We don't get any of the Pennzoil Euro stuff in larger sizes, except for EcoBoxes and drums.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Average or not, if you want to compete, especially with few specials on 1 quart jugs, a 5 quart (or 5 litre) jug would be handy to have. We don't get any of the Pennzoil Euro stuff in larger sizes, except for EcoBoxes and drums.

To their credit, they are only one offering MB 229.51, BMW LL-04 oils in Wal Mart.
However, I am avoiding it since I have no clue based on their PDS what is what. Their 5W40 has NOACK 6.8% but 5W30 Euro L 11%, which is kind of strange.

 

[Garak]

Our Walmarts don't have it at all. Some have the Castrol 0w-40, but more have the 0w-30 (obviously 1 L bottles) and the 5w-40, which really isn't worth it. Our Canadian Tires have some Pennzoil Euro. Most carry the Euro L, but not the A3/B4 stuff, which is kind of odd.

 

[Leonardo629]

I don't think Mobil/Exxon is the one phasing out LL-01 here, if you go to the link I provided:

https://www.getbmwparts.com/partlocator/...amp;startrow=26

You will see that pretty much all the 2016 and newer fleet now calls for LL14FE+ 0W20 and LL-01FE 0W30. Slightly older BMWs with N54 and N55 motors have also been retrofitted with LL-01FE 0W30. So you see, BMW is the one making the good ol' LL-01 obsolete.

I guess the point I want to make is, the "not so new" M1 0W40 FS retains MB/Porsche/GTR certs for a reason, they are not introducing a new lubrication paradigm shift (FE+) like BMW is.

Secondly, if Castrol decides to change their 0W40 formula as drastically (to GTL) as Mobil/Exxon has, I'm sure them too would lose the LL-01 cert as well.

 

[oil_film_movies]

Originally Posted By: Leonardo629
I guess the point I want to make is, the "not so new" M1 0W40 FS retains MB/Porsche/GTR certs for a reason, they are not introducing a new lubrication paradigm shift (FE+) like BMW is.
Mobil1 FS does not have the GTR certification anymore. Nissan always said they granted the cert in the first place to M1 0w40 because thats what they used in durability testing, so when M1 0w40 changed, it lost the cert. ..... BMW oil itself has LL-01 from Shell, along with the thinner varieties.
http://www.bmwwidget.ca/pdf/2015_BMWOil_Brochure_EN.pdf

Originally Posted By: Leonardo629
Secondly, if Castrol decides to change their 0W40 formula as drastically (to GTL) as Mobil/Exxon has, I'm sure them too would lose the LL-01 cert as well.
BMW's own house brand oil are Shell GTL based, and they have no problem keeping the LL-01, etc. certifications of course.

 

[Leonardo629]

If you refer to the latest 2017 GTR user's manual, you'll find "Mobil 1 0W40 is the factory oil" under the engine oil section. Unless the wording excludes the "FS" version, I'm gonna assume M1 0W40 is still the factory fill, but I could be wrong.

BMW's very own oil now has LL01FE certification, not LL01. A fellow member mentioned in another M1 thread that BMW 0W40 oil has been discontinued. I'm gonna assume BMW's very own 5W30 LL01 is getting phase out as well in favor of the new LL01FE 0W30.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Leonardo629
If you refer to the latest 2017 GTR user's manual, you'll find "Mobil 1 0W40 is the factory oil" under the engine oil section. Unless the wording excludes the "FS" version, I'm gonna assume M1 0W40 is still the factory fill, but I could be wrong.

BMW's very own oil now has LL01FE certification, not LL01. A fellow member mentioned in another M1 thread that BMW 0W40 oil has been discontinued. I'm gonna assume BMW's very own 5W30 LL01 is getting phase out as well in favor of the new LL01FE 0W30.


I think BMW still has LL-01 available and still using it.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Leonardo629

You will see that pretty much all the 2016 and newer fleet now calls for LL14FE+ 0W20 and LL-01FE 0W30. Slightly older BMWs with N54 and N55 motors have also been retrofitted with LL-01FE 0W30. So you see, BMW is the one making the good ol' LL-01 obsolete.

I guess the point I want to make is, the "not so new" M1 0W40 FS retains MB/Porsche/GTR certs for a reason, they are not introducing a new lubrication paradigm shift (FE+) like BMW is.

Secondly, if Castrol decides to change their 0W40 formula as drastically (to GTL) as Mobil/Exxon has, I'm sure them too would lose the LL-01 cert as well.

It still leaves customers in the lurch. Pennzoil still has LL-01 on the shelf.

 

[Leonardo629]

Yes, Pennzoil 0W40 doesn't have LL-01 cert, 5W40 Euro does, but it's not as readily available.

Pennzoil 5W40 Euro don't even come in 5qt jugs on walmart.com nor amazon.com.

Castrol is of course the best alternative if you are keen on the LL-01 cert, but I just prefer the latest GTL formula.

forget about LL-01 for a sec, I still can't believe BMW really is prescribing 0W20 in the new 3.0L B58 engines pushing 320hp/330ft-lb.

 

[Wolf359]

Originally Posted By: Leonardo629
Yes, Pennzoil 0W40 doesn't have LL-01 cert, 5W40 Euro does, but it's not as readily available.

Pennzoil 5W40 Euro don't even come in 5qt jugs on walmart.com nor amazon.com.

Castrol is of course the best alternative if you are keen on the LL-01 cert, but I just prefer the latest GTL formula.

forget about LL-01 for a sec, I still can't believe BMW really is prescribing 0W20 in the new 3.0L B58 engines pushing 320hp/330ft-lb.


Maybe that's why Autozone had it on clearance. Picked up a bunch of Pennzoil 5w40 last year for $2 a quart. Also had some Castrol 0w40 and 0w30.

 

[FermeLaPorte]

Sounds like Shell stepped in

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Leonardo629
Yes, Pennzoil 0W40 doesn't have LL-01 cert, 5W40 Euro does, but it's not as readily available.

Up here, neither are readily available, but the 5w-40 is a wee bit more available. And we get none of the Pennzoil Euro stuff in 5 L or 5 quart jugs here.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Leonardo629
Yes, Pennzoil 0W40 doesn't have LL-01 cert, 5W40 Euro does, but it's not as readily available.

Pennzoil 5W40 Euro don't even come in 5qt jugs on walmart.com nor amazon.com.

Castrol is of course the best alternative if you are keen on the LL-01 cert, but I just prefer the latest GTL formula.

forget about LL-01 for a sec, I still can't believe BMW really is prescribing 0W20 in the new 3.0L B58 engines pushing 320hp/330ft-lb.

Why you cannot believe it? 99% of BMW buyers in the U.S. are using their BMW's for few miles a day.
B58 is also LL-01 specd.

 

[homeyclaus]

Originally Posted By: Leonardo629
Yes, Pennzoil 0W40 doesn't have LL-01 cert, 5W40 Euro does, but it's not as readily available.

Pennzoil 5W40 Euro don't even come in 5qt jugs on walmart.com nor amazon.com.

Castrol is of course the best alternative if you are keen on the LL-01 cert, but I just prefer the latest GTL formula.

forget about LL-01 for a sec, I still can't believe BMW really is prescribing 0W20 in the new 3.0L B58 engines pushing 320hp/330ft-lb.


And a Toyota Tundra 5.7L is 385hp, and specs vanilla API 0W20, even for towing, with a large number of trouble-free, high-mileage engines out there. Viscosity has less and less to do with film shear strength and the ability to carry heat, and as this trend continues thinner oils "might" provide cold start and other flow benefits.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: homeyclaus
Originally Posted By: Leonardo629
Yes, Pennzoil 0W40 doesn't have LL-01 cert, 5W40 Euro does, but it's not as readily available.

Pennzoil 5W40 Euro don't even come in 5qt jugs on walmart.com nor amazon.com.

Castrol is of course the best alternative if you are keen on the LL-01 cert, but I just prefer the latest GTL formula.

forget about LL-01 for a sec, I still can't believe BMW really is prescribing 0W20 in the new 3.0L B58 engines pushing 320hp/330ft-lb.


And a Toyota Tundra 5.7L is 385hp, and specs vanilla API 0W20, even for towing, with a large number of trouble-free, high-mileage engines out there. Viscosity has less and less to do with film shear strength and the ability to carry heat, and as this trend continues thinner oils "might" provide cold start and other flow benefits.


It isn't the total power figure, but rather density that has historically led to the spec of heavier oil. In the two examples cited, the BMW is 106.7HP/L, whilst the Toyota is 67.5HP/L, significantly less.

Thinking of perhaps a more fitting example, Ford has recently upped the viscosity requirement for their power-dense force induction engines, which now spec 5w-30. If we specifically look at the Mustang:

The 5.0L makes 435HP, making it 87HP/L - specs 5w-20
The 3.7L makes 300HP, making it 81HP/L - specs 5w-20
The 2.3L makes 310HP, making it 135HP/L - specs 5w-30
The 5.2L makes 526HP, making it 101HP/L - specs 5w-50

As you can see, the higher power density engines spec heavier oil with the track-oriented GT350's 5.2L following the tradition of spec'ing Ford's 5w-50, which was the case for the Track Pack Mustang GT, Ford GT, GT500 and BOSS 302.

 

[4WD]

Wow - my buddies 2014 Shelby American "Snake" has reason for the M1 15w50
Even at 5.8L ... lots of ponies against the L ratio ...

 

[homeyclaus]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: homeyclaus
Originally Posted By: Leonardo629
Yes, Pennzoil 0W40 doesn't have LL-01 cert, 5W40 Euro does, but it's not as readily available.

Pennzoil 5W40 Euro don't even come in 5qt jugs on walmart.com nor amazon.com.

Castrol is of course the best alternative if you are keen on the LL-01 cert, but I just prefer the latest GTL formula.

forget about LL-01 for a sec, I still can't believe BMW really is prescribing 0W20 in the new 3.0L B58 engines pushing 320hp/330ft-lb.


And a Toyota Tundra 5.7L is 385hp, and specs vanilla API 0W20, even for towing, with a large number of trouble-free, high-mileage engines out there. Viscosity has less and less to do with film shear strength and the ability to carry heat, and as this trend continues thinner oils "might" provide cold start and other flow benefits.


It isn't the total power figure, but rather density that has historically led to the spec of heavier oil. In the two examples cited, the BMW is 106.7HP/L, whilst the Toyota is 67.5HP/L, significantly less.

Thinking of perhaps a more fitting example, Ford has recently upped the viscosity requirement for their power-dense force induction engines, which now spec 5w-30. If we specifically look at the Mustang:

The 5.0L makes 435HP, making it 87HP/L - specs 5w-20
The 3.7L makes 300HP, making it 81HP/L - specs 5w-20
The 2.3L makes 310HP, making it 135HP/L - specs 5w-30
The 5.2L makes 526HP, making it 101HP/L - specs 5w-50

As you can see, the higher power density engines spec heavier oil with the track-oriented GT350's 5.2L following the tradition of spec'ing Ford's 5w-50, which was the case for the Track Pack Mustang GT, Ford GT, GT500 and BOSS 302.


I understand.

Duty cycle is another consideration - one of those engines really tow. I had a Focus ST with its 250 hp 2.0L. But towing generates a high, constant load for long periods. Things get hot, but it's quite different from track use. What's the Ford 5.0 Coyote spec in the F150?

It's not as simple as bhp/L. It's possible other clearances are different requiring a different viscosity. I doubt that at operating temperature it matters much in anything other than edge cases, so run what makes you feel best.

 

[OVERKILL]

No, but BHP/L is a component.

I don't have a shop manual in front of me, but the clearances are the same on the Coyote, regardless of what application it is in as far as I recall. However the Coyote in the Mustang has a higher BHP/L than in the F-150, as the F-150 makes 395HP, putting it at 79HP/L, still higher than the Toyota example, but a solid 40HP shy of the car version. It also specs 5w-20, however the forced induction options like the 2.7L and the 3.5L spec 5w-30.

Also worth mentioning is that many (most?) truck applications will feature an oil cooler as part of the factory plumbing. So keeping oil temperature in check while towing is accounted for there.