I've heard it's a better base oil, possibly a majority PAO, but what happens to the additive package over the 15,000 prescribed OCI, as we know the base oil technically never really wears out, does Mobil 1 use an extra robust additive package, I am liking the idea of Mobil 1 EP and a 15K mile Fram Ultra, with the help of BITOG I've increased my OCI from 3,000 to 5,000 and currently to 6,000, baby steps!
What's the mechanism of Mobil 1 extended perf.?
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0w20 EP has more PAO I believe, but think just more additives.
Depends highly on driving type & vehicle for 15k too.
Depends highly on driving type & vehicle for 15k too.
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Additives don't deplete. Its the oil that depletes due to soot, water, combustion byproducts etc that causes oil to lose its useful life.
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Deven you better footnote - especially when you are making INCORRECT statements.
My assumption is that the oil would be more shear resistant. This allows a longer drain interval as the oil will remain in spec longer. This usually involves a stronger base oil, and all the EP Mobil 1 versions have at least 20-30% PAO. The 0w-20 just has more.
Originally Posted By: deven
Additives don't deplete. Its the oil that depletes due to soot, water, combustion byproducts etc that causes oil to lose its useful life.
In as sense, the add pack does get used up in an effort to fight acid buildup. It eventually gets to the point where the add pack is so used up, the acids take over (TAN > TBN).
Additives don't deplete. Its the oil that depletes due to soot, water, combustion byproducts etc that causes oil to lose its useful life.
In as sense, the add pack does get used up in an effort to fight acid buildup. It eventually gets to the point where the add pack is so used up, the acids take over (TAN > TBN).
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I should think that EP could do a 10K OCI even with short tripping. I should have about 18K when I test my current fill of M1 EP 0W-20 (currently at 15K and with a FRAM Ultra).
Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
I should think that EP could do a 10K OCI even with short tripping.
Short tripping is very tough on oil, regardless how good the oil is. You get excess fuel and moisture that just never gets a chance to burn off, and there really isn't anything in the oil that can combat it.
Is 10K still possible under certain conditions in certain engines? I suppose a UOA could help verify.
I did 6K on Pennzoil Euro once, mostly short tripped over the course of two winters. I did not like what I saw on a UOA. Granted Pennzoil Euro does not equal M1 EP, but it is considered a long life oil.
I should think that EP could do a 10K OCI even with short tripping.
Short tripping is very tough on oil, regardless how good the oil is. You get excess fuel and moisture that just never gets a chance to burn off, and there really isn't anything in the oil that can combat it.
Is 10K still possible under certain conditions in certain engines? I suppose a UOA could help verify.
I did 6K on Pennzoil Euro once, mostly short tripped over the course of two winters. I did not like what I saw on a UOA. Granted Pennzoil Euro does not equal M1 EP, but it is considered a long life oil.
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
I did 6K on Pennzoil Euro once, mostly short tripped over the course of two winters. I did not like what I saw on a UOA. Granted Pennzoil Euro does not equal M1 EP, but it is considered a long life oil.
What did it show? Isn't the remedy for gas and water in oil to simple take a cruise for a couple hours?
In general how many uoas come back saying the oil is used up to the point that it no longer lubricates?
I did 6K on Pennzoil Euro once, mostly short tripped over the course of two winters. I did not like what I saw on a UOA. Granted Pennzoil Euro does not equal M1 EP, but it is considered a long life oil.
What did it show? Isn't the remedy for gas and water in oil to simple take a cruise for a couple hours?
In general how many uoas come back saying the oil is used up to the point that it no longer lubricates?
Originally Posted By: deven
Additives don't deplete. Its the oil that depletes due to soot, water, combustion byproducts etc that causes oil to lose its useful life.
LOL. Uhh, actually, it is the additives that get used up. Base oil doesn't wear out. Additives do. That's why you change your oil! The TBN drops due to the additives being worn out.
~ Triton
Additives don't deplete. Its the oil that depletes due to soot, water, combustion byproducts etc that causes oil to lose its useful life.
LOL. Uhh, actually, it is the additives that get used up. Base oil doesn't wear out. Additives do. That's why you change your oil! The TBN drops due to the additives being worn out.
~ Triton
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
What did it show? Isn't the remedy for gas and water in oil to simple take a cruise for a couple hours?
It showed TAN exceeding TBN, which means excess acid buildup that leads to excess wear, based on many industry studies that I've seen. A long cruise might help burn off moisture, but from what I understand, fuel dillution causes irreversible changes in the oil, even after it's been burned off. Besides, taking a cruise for a couple of hours just wasn't practical. For the time and money I'd spend, I'd rather just change the oil.
Quote:
In general how many uoas come back saying the oil is used up to the point that it no longer lubricates?
Lubrication is not an on/off type condition. An oil will continue to lubricate for a long time, but in progressively worse manner. And where you draw the line is very subjective, I'm afraid.
Would my engine explode if I kept that oil in there for another year? I doubt it. But I can see how continued operation like that could eventually lead to problems down the road. Would I still be owning the car when that happened? Who knows?
However, most manufacturers do place a 1 year limit on OCI, regardless of miles, and for those falling under severe service, I think this is reasonable. Then again, most manufacturers in Europe have extended it to 2 years, and as far as I know, their cars are still alive.
What did it show? Isn't the remedy for gas and water in oil to simple take a cruise for a couple hours?
It showed TAN exceeding TBN, which means excess acid buildup that leads to excess wear, based on many industry studies that I've seen. A long cruise might help burn off moisture, but from what I understand, fuel dillution causes irreversible changes in the oil, even after it's been burned off. Besides, taking a cruise for a couple of hours just wasn't practical. For the time and money I'd spend, I'd rather just change the oil.
Quote:
In general how many uoas come back saying the oil is used up to the point that it no longer lubricates?
Lubrication is not an on/off type condition. An oil will continue to lubricate for a long time, but in progressively worse manner. And where you draw the line is very subjective, I'm afraid.
Would my engine explode if I kept that oil in there for another year? I doubt it. But I can see how continued operation like that could eventually lead to problems down the road. Would I still be owning the car when that happened? Who knows?
However, most manufacturers do place a 1 year limit on OCI, regardless of miles, and for those falling under severe service, I think this is reasonable. Then again, most manufacturers in Europe have extended it to 2 years, and as far as I know, their cars are still alive.
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Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
It showed TAN exceeding TBN, which means excess acid buildup that leads to excess wear, based on many industry studies that I've seen.
By how much and how high was the TAN? Without excess wear metal readings, TAN crossing TBN is not the be-all, end-all to oil life. Until the TAN goes above 8.x it is not really that high and you would have to know what the TAN was at VOA for comparison.
It showed TAN exceeding TBN, which means excess acid buildup that leads to excess wear, based on many industry studies that I've seen.
By how much and how high was the TAN? Without excess wear metal readings, TAN crossing TBN is not the be-all, end-all to oil life. Until the TAN goes above 8.x it is not really that high and you would have to know what the TAN was at VOA for comparison.
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Slightly off topic(apologies in advance)but still M1 related. Do the M1 High Mileage oils contain any pao/esters in the base oil or are they a full on grp III Visom? Not that it probably matters,I love the oil,I'm just curious what the current/newest formula may be? And how about the current 15W50 as well?
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Slightly off topic(apologies in advance)but still M1 related. Do the M1 High Mileage oils contain any pao/esters in the base oil or are they a full on grp III Visom? Not that it probably matters,I love the oil,I'm just curious what the current/newest formula may be? And how about the current 15W50 as well?
Looking at the MSDS for the High Mileage M1 oils:
1. 5w-20: 5-10% PAO
2. 5w30: 5-10% PAO
3. 10w30: 1-5% PAO
4. 10w-40: 5-10% PAO
With respect to your inquiry on the xW-50 products:
1. 15w-50: 10-20% PAO
2. 5w-50: 10-20% PAO
Concentrations appear to be the same for the EP versions as well.
Slightly off topic(apologies in advance)but still M1 related. Do the M1 High Mileage oils contain any pao/esters in the base oil or are they a full on grp III Visom? Not that it probably matters,I love the oil,I'm just curious what the current/newest formula may be? And how about the current 15W50 as well?
Looking at the MSDS for the High Mileage M1 oils:
1. 5w-20: 5-10% PAO
2. 5w30: 5-10% PAO
3. 10w30: 1-5% PAO
4. 10w-40: 5-10% PAO
With respect to your inquiry on the xW-50 products:
1. 15w-50: 10-20% PAO
2. 5w-50: 10-20% PAO
Concentrations appear to be the same for the EP versions as well.
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2006
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- 29,558
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Slightly off topic(apologies in advance)but still M1 related. Do the M1 High Mileage oils contain any pao/esters in the base oil or are they a full on grp III Visom? Not that it probably matters,I love the oil,I'm just curious what the current/newest formula may be? And how about the current 15W50 as well?
Looking at the MSDS for the High Mileage M1 oils:
1. 5w-20: 5-10% PAO
2. 5w30: 5-10% PAO
3. 10w30: 1-5% PAO
4. 10w-40: 5-10% PAO
With respect to your inquiry on the xW-50 products:
1. 15w-50: 10-20% PAO
2. 5w-50: 10-20% PAO
Concentrations appear to be the same for the EP versions as well.
Thanks Overkill!
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Slightly off topic(apologies in advance)but still M1 related. Do the M1 High Mileage oils contain any pao/esters in the base oil or are they a full on grp III Visom? Not that it probably matters,I love the oil,I'm just curious what the current/newest formula may be? And how about the current 15W50 as well?
Looking at the MSDS for the High Mileage M1 oils:
1. 5w-20: 5-10% PAO
2. 5w30: 5-10% PAO
3. 10w30: 1-5% PAO
4. 10w-40: 5-10% PAO
With respect to your inquiry on the xW-50 products:
1. 15w-50: 10-20% PAO
2. 5w-50: 10-20% PAO
Concentrations appear to be the same for the EP versions as well.
Thanks Overkill!
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: deven
Additives don't deplete. Its the oil that depletes due to soot, water, combustion byproducts etc that causes oil to lose its useful life.
In as sense, the add pack does get used up in an effort to fight acid buildup. It eventually gets to the point where the add pack is so used up, the acids take over (TAN > TBN).
I was thinking that the OP meant that the amount in ppm would get lesser. Yes of course the add packs ability to protect an engine can lessen if the acid build up and by products get high enough.
I've seen many UOA's where the TBN is nearly depletes but the ZDDP levels in ppm were about the same as VOA numbers. That was the angle my response was coming from.
Originally Posted By: deven
Additives don't deplete. Its the oil that depletes due to soot, water, combustion byproducts etc that causes oil to lose its useful life.
In as sense, the add pack does get used up in an effort to fight acid buildup. It eventually gets to the point where the add pack is so used up, the acids take over (TAN > TBN).
I was thinking that the OP meant that the amount in ppm would get lesser. Yes of course the add packs ability to protect an engine can lessen if the acid build up and by products get high enough.
I've seen many UOA's where the TBN is nearly depletes but the ZDDP levels in ppm were about the same as VOA numbers. That was the angle my response was coming from.
Originally Posted By: Triton_330
Originally Posted By: deven
Additives don't deplete. Its the oil that depletes due to soot, water, combustion byproducts etc that causes oil to lose its useful life.
LOL. Uhh, actually, it is the additives that get used up. Base oil doesn't wear out. Additives do. That's why you change your oil! The TBN drops due to the additives being worn out.
~ Triton
I do believe base oil breaks downs. The better the base stock ie. POE>PAO>Bro III the better it's ability to withstand oxidation. In a UOA when the oil shears it's not mainly due to the additives but has to do with base oil and it's VII. Same with cold cranking, as the oil ages and is now requiring to suspend soot and other by products in the oil it's loses a little bit of its cold cranking ability.
There is a reason why mechanics always say if the oil is dirty change it.
Originally Posted By: deven
Additives don't deplete. Its the oil that depletes due to soot, water, combustion byproducts etc that causes oil to lose its useful life.
LOL. Uhh, actually, it is the additives that get used up. Base oil doesn't wear out. Additives do. That's why you change your oil! The TBN drops due to the additives being worn out.
~ Triton
I do believe base oil breaks downs. The better the base stock ie. POE>PAO>Bro III the better it's ability to withstand oxidation. In a UOA when the oil shears it's not mainly due to the additives but has to do with base oil and it's VII. Same with cold cranking, as the oil ages and is now requiring to suspend soot and other by products in the oil it's loses a little bit of its cold cranking ability.
There is a reason why mechanics always say if the oil is dirty change it.
Originally Posted By: deven
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: deven
Additives don't deplete. Its the oil that depletes due to soot, water, combustion byproducts etc that causes oil to lose its useful life.
In as sense, the add pack does get used up in an effort to fight acid buildup. It eventually gets to the point where the add pack is so used up, the acids take over (TAN > TBN).
I was thinking that the OP meant that the amount in ppm would get lesser. Yes of course the add packs ability to protect an engine can lessen if the acid build up and by products get high enough.
I've seen many UOA's where the TBN is nearly depletes but the ZDDP levels in ppm were about the same as VOA numbers. That was the angle my response was coming from.
I don't believe UOAs can accurately measure additive depletion.
The UOAs measure only elements. So for example elemental zinc. ZDDP is not an element. If it chemically degraded inside the engine in any way, the zinc will always be there since elements can't be destroyed, and give the same reading.
It's easy to overlook that oil analysis only measures characteristic atoms, which are part of larger additive molecules.
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: deven
Additives don't deplete. Its the oil that depletes due to soot, water, combustion byproducts etc that causes oil to lose its useful life.
In as sense, the add pack does get used up in an effort to fight acid buildup. It eventually gets to the point where the add pack is so used up, the acids take over (TAN > TBN).
I was thinking that the OP meant that the amount in ppm would get lesser. Yes of course the add packs ability to protect an engine can lessen if the acid build up and by products get high enough.
I've seen many UOA's where the TBN is nearly depletes but the ZDDP levels in ppm were about the same as VOA numbers. That was the angle my response was coming from.
I don't believe UOAs can accurately measure additive depletion.
The UOAs measure only elements. So for example elemental zinc. ZDDP is not an element. If it chemically degraded inside the engine in any way, the zinc will always be there since elements can't be destroyed, and give the same reading.
It's easy to overlook that oil analysis only measures characteristic atoms, which are part of larger additive molecules.
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