Whats the least expensive JASO MA spec full synthetic?

[BusyLittleShop]

Is there concern of the 5w sheering faster than the 15w?

The concern is faster sheer = faster wear... but this assumption is proven false by my own 5w30 test in my prized RC45 and the mountain of positive data from the Lab Testers...

All oils will show some degree of shear during their service but
Blackstone's used oil report data has affirmed there are no reason to
fear the shear because as our oil shears flow increases without the
dreaded increase in wear...

 

[ZeeOSix]

The concern is faster sheer = faster wear... but this assumption is proven false by my own 5w30 test in my prized RC45 and the mountain of positive data from the Lab Testers...

All oils will show some degree of shear during their service but
Blackstone's used oil report data has affirmed there are no reason to
fear the shear because as our oil shears flow increases without the
dreaded increase in wear...

Blackstone is far from being Tribology geniuses, or even guys who understand the basics of an engine oiling system. Flow volume doesn't increase to engine parts that are supplied by a positive displacement oil pump as the oil becomes thinner.

However, the oil film thickness between moving parts (the MOFT) does decrease due to shearing and any fuel dilution. The smaller the MOFT becomes, the more potential for metal-to-metal contact and increased wear.

 

[cheesepuffs2]

The concern is faster sheer = faster wear... but this assumption is proven false by my own 5w30 test in my prized RC45 and the mountain of positive data from the Lab Testers...

All oils will show some degree of shear during their service but
Blackstone's used oil report data has affirmed there are no reason to
fear the shear because as our oil shears flow increases without the
dreaded increase in wear...

If the increased flow that results from sheering is a good thing, then why do we even run xW-40 oils in motorcycle engines to begin with over 20 or 30 weight oils?

 

[cheesepuffs2]

Blackstone is far from being Tribology geniuses, or even guys who understand the basics of an engine oiling system. Flow volume doesn't increase to engine parts that are supplied by a positive displacement oil pump as the oil becomes thinner.

However, the oil film thickness between moving parts (the MOFT) does decrease due to shearing and any fuel dilution. The smaller the MOFT becomes, the more potential for metal-to-metal contact and increased wear.

I know this is oversimplification, but is it fair to say that generally speaking a 30 weight oil will protect against wear (talking bearings, cam lobes, etc) than a 20 weight oil?

 

[ZeeOSix]

I know this is oversimplification, but is it fair to say that generally speaking a 30 weight oil will protect against wear (talking bearings, cam lobes, etc) than a 20 weight oil?

Thicker viscosity means more film thickness between moving parts. The film thickness is the only thing that keeps parts separated. Less viscosity means less separation between parts.

 

[cheesepuffs2]

Thicker viscosity means more film thickness between moving parts. The film thickness is the only thing that keeps parts separated. Less viscosity means less separation between parts.

So

yes.

 

[cheesepuffs2]

Thicker viscosity means more film thickness between moving parts. The film thickness is the only thing that keeps parts separated. Less viscosity means less separation between parts.

Is there any merit to the idea that thinner oils "flow better" and that the "flow" is more important than the film thickness itself for keeping parts separated?

 

[BusyLittleShop]

If the increased flow that results from sheering is a good thing, then why do we even run xW-40 oils in motorcycle engines to begin with over 20 or 30 weight oils?

Blackstone's 35 years worth of racing and street motorcycle oil
analysis shows no significant differences in WEAR between the grades
or brands... in other words either a 30 grade or a 40 grade oil will meet
and exceed your mileage expectations...

Are oils are graded by gravity flow, formally called Kinematic
Viscosity (KV) in accordance to ASTM D-445... its important to note
that this test is not a measurement of an oils thickness nor an oils
weight... its a measurement of time required for a fixed volume of oil
at a constant temp to flow under the force of mean old Mr.Gravity...
The rate of flow is expressed in Centistokes (cST)... the lower the cST
number the quicker the flow which usually mean quicker revs and more power...

 

[cheesepuffs2]

Blackstone's 35 years worth of racing and street motorcycle oil
analysis shows no significant differences in WEAR between the grades
or brands... in other words either a 30 grade or a 40 grade oil will meet
and exceed your mileage expectations...

So again, why do OEMs spec 40 weights?

 

[BusyLittleShop]

So again, why do OEMs spec 40 weights?

EC... Engineers Choice...

 

[blupupher]

The GN4 isn't a full syn, but is still a good oil, and is the Mobil JASO MA speced?

No, the Honda GN4 is not synthetic, but the Goldwing does not require it.
Honda says the 8,000 mile OCI is what is sufficient using the GN4 oil.
I would bet you would see no difference in engine life using the GN4 oil vs a JASO MA synthetic at the same intervals.

No, Mobil 1 HM 10w-40 is not JASO certified or recommended, but it is a non-energy conserving oil that works in a wide variety of motorcycles.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Is there any merit to the idea that thinner oils "flow better" and that the "flow" is more important than the film thickness itself for keeping parts separated?

Only time oil couldn't "flow better" to parts that are not supplied oil by the PD oil pump is during a very cold start-up where the "W" rating of the oil is not correct for the start-up temperature conditions. That could be true for any xW-20, 30, 40 or 50 where x is too high. The PD oil pump ensures adequate oil flow to critical parts. Once the oil gets warmed up there's really no such thing as "thinner oils giving more flow and lubrication". If there is some inherent oiling system desigh or operational problem going on then that would mean a lack of oil flow and lubrication.

Blackstone's statement is wrong about "thinner oil giving more flow" except in possibly the cold start-up situation for parts that are splash lubricated. Force fed PD pump supplied parts are going to get adequate flow and lubrication as long as the right "W" rating is used for cold start-ups. As long as the flow is giving adequate lubrication, then having more flow doesn't do much except to maybe help add some cooling to some lubricated parts.

 

[ZeeOSix]

So again, why do OEMs spec 40 weights?

Because they understand Tribology and that thicker oil gives better film thickness between moving parts, and therefore more engine wear protection. Pretty simple physics of Tribology.

 

[cheesepuffs2]

Because they understand Tribology and that thicker oil gives better film thickness between moving parts, and therefore more engine wear protection. Pretty simple physics of Tribology.

Not challenging what you're saying, just asking for clarity on my part: I've read that thicker oils don't cool as well as thinner oils. In an air-cooled motorcycle engine, would the benefits of a thicker oil outweight the higher heat causes by using it over a thinner option?

 

[ZeeOSix]

Not challenging what you're saying, just asking for clarity on my part: I've read that thicker oils don't cool as well as thinner oils. In an air-cooled motorcycle engine, would the benefits of a thicker oil outweight the higher heat causes by using it over a thinner option?

Yes ... the resulting temperature difference isnt significant. If it was a concern then engineers would specify thinner oil to help control temperatures, and car manufacturers wouldn't specify thicker oil for track use. They take care of cooling in other ways if necessary. Some air cooled motorcycles do have a remote air-to-oil cooler.

Retaining higher minimum oil film thickness is still more important, even if the resulting MOFT is greater with hotter oil. If you had an air cooled motor, do you think it would have better wear protection with 5W-20 or 10W-40 during a long track session?

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Not challenging what you're saying, just asking for clarity on my part: I've read that thicker oils don't cool as well as thinner oils. In an air-cooled motorcycle engine, would the benefits of a thicker oil outweight the higher heat causes by using it over a thinner option?

My friend Dr.Dave challenged the thicker is better notion and discovered the benefits of the freer flowing 30 grade over the slower 40 grade...

Quote BITOG DrDave
"My old Harley really liked 10w-30 Amsoil. These was a significant
reduction in wear metals going from 15-40 to 10-30. There were no
consumption issues. It certainly started easier. By easier I mean it
spun over much faster. The motor seemed quieter, and Harley's need all
the help they can get in that department."

 

[grampi]

No, the Honda GN4 is not synthetic, but the Goldwing does not require it.
Honda says the 8,000 mile OCI is what is sufficient using the GN4 oil.
I would bet you would see no difference in engine life using the GN4 oil vs a JASO MA synthetic at the same intervals.

That is a possibility, but if I can get full syn for the same price as a conventional or a blend, why not get the full syn? It's most definitely better than a blend or a dino...

 

[kschachn]

My friend Dr.Dave challenged the thicker is better notion and discovered the benefits of the freer flowing 30 grade over the slower 40 grade...

Quote BITOG DrDave
"My old Harley really liked 10w-30 Amsoil. These was a significant
reduction in wear metals going from 15-40 to 10-30. There were no
consumption issues. It certainly started easier. By easier I mean it
spun over much faster. The motor seemed quieter, and Harley's need all
the help they can get in that department."

Wear metals on a spectrographic analysis do not provide a comparative quality assessment between oils. That is a far more complicated and extensive test and costs a whole lot more than $30. Anything he observed was due to operational or environmental differences or within the tolerances of the machine.

 

[alarmguy]

Yes ... the resulting temperature difference isnt significant. If it was a concern then engineers would specify thinner oil to help control temperatures, and car manufacturers wouldn't specify thicker oil for track use. They take care of cooling in other ways if necessary. Some air cooled motorcycles do have a remote air-to-oil cooler.

Retaining higher minimum oil film thickness is still more important, even if the resulting MOFT is greater with hotter oil. If you had an air cooled motor, do you think it would have better wear protection with 5W-20 or 10W-40 during a long track session?

Been following your posts and I agree with you and what the manufacturers call for.
Here is another example. Why would I use a 10/30, 5/30 or 10/40 when the boat that someone buys engine maker calls for a straight weight 40?
SO I dont buy that thin oil protects as well if the manufacturer calls for thicker oil. I trust Mercury Marine has a reason for this and I actually had first hand knowledge of it in my brothers twin engine v6 merc powered boat. Merc calls for their 40 wt (aka 25/40) my brother, ONE TIME after decades of boating cheaped out and bought 20/50 castrol thinking it had to be just as good. WELL, he had a hard run out to the ocean and back, when he arrived at the dock the engines (valves) where clattering like broken sewing machines, he put the Merc 25/40 back in never an issue again and never cheaped out again. The 25/40 is a straight weight oil.

Lets go to a more modern SUV vehicle. If 0/20 and 5/20 protect as good as a 5/30 why does GM spec 5/30 in their Chevy Traverse V6 engines? (as well as their other SUVs) Clearly there is something to the thicker oil protection in some applications or GM would be THRILLED to add an extra maybe up to 1 percent of MPG possibly by recommending a thinner oil but they dont.

 

[Nesterenko]

Been following your posts and I agree with you and what the manufacturers call for.
Here is another example. Why would I use a 10/30, 5/30 or 10/40 when the boat that someone buys engine maker calls for a straight weight 40?
SO I dont buy that thin oil protects as well if the manufacturer calls for thicker oil. I trust Mercury Marine has a reason for this and I actually had first hand knowledge of it in my brothers twin engine v6 merc powered boat. Merc calls for their 40 wt (aka 25/40) my brother, ONE TIME after decades of boating cheaped out and bought 20/50 castrol thinking it had to be just as good. WELL, he had a hard run out to the ocean and back, when he arrived at the dock the engines (valves) where clattering like broken sewing machines, he put the Merc 25/40 back in never an issue again and never cheaped out again. The 25/40 is a straight weight oil.

Lets go to a more modern SUV vehicle. If 0/20 and 5/20 protect as good as a 5/30 why does GM spec 5/30 in their Chevy Traverse V6 engines? (as well as their other SUVs) Clearly there is something to the thicker oil protection in some applications or GM would be THRILLED to add an extra maybe up to 1 percent of MPG possibly by recommending a thinner oil but they dont.

Yeah, that 20w50 Castrol is real cheap stuff