Difficult shifting and finding neutral. Oil (or other) recommendations?

[pwillikers]

Hello Gentlemen,

My '09 Buell 1125cr motorcycle (liquid cooled, wet clutch, Rotax manufactured engine - not Harley engine) is balky shifting, particularly finding neutral. It's very notchy and requires a lot more lever force to change gears than it used to. In the past it has shifted very smoothly. The clutch does not drag when disengaged.

I have used automotive oil (with friction modifiers), AMSOil Dominator 15W-50, in the past based on a recommendation without checking the specs myself and the clutch started slipping. I dumped it and filled it with Rotella T6 which is JASO MA2 certified (good for wet clutches). It got better but was not gone. It eventually took three oil changes in rapid succession, cleaning the clutch fiber disks with solvent multiple times and a little bit of riding in between for the slipping to totally abate. I rode around for a few miles in between changes, enough to get the oil good and hot and circulate it throughout the clutch, but, avoided any slipping as to not wear the clutch plates. I've since only used JASO MA2 certified oil (formulated for wet clutches) and the slipping is long gone. I mention this to assert that I'm not interested in revisiting this laborious adventure. I'll only consider using JASO MA2 certified oils.

My most recent oil change was 1.5K miles ago and I used Valvoline 10W-40 Full Synthetic Motorcycle 4-Stroke Oil.

This was one of the best shifting transmissions I've ever owned (three dozen bikes over the years) and I'm determined to make it so again.

Has anyone else experienced this kind of shifting difficulty?

Has anyone found an oil (or other remedy) they can recommend that enables smooth shifting on a high-torque engine that doesn't cause the clutch to slip? Buell recommends SAE 20W-50 (HD 360 - Harley's own brand).

Thanks.

 

[kebabaluba]

You don`t think that thinner oil you are using are the culprit? 10W-40 is different than 20W-50.

 

[KrisZ]

It’s probably not oil related at all. How does the shifter mechanism look like? Any bent parts? It may also be a worn/bent fork inside the tranny.

 

[BusyLittleShop]

First step is a check for unwanted clutch drag...

After 50 years dealing with riding and racing customers who complained
about shift quality the clutch and not oil was the problem... Manufactures
warn owners that our gears can't shift smoothly if our clutch is part
way engaged...

Here are the steps how to check and eliminate unwanted clutch drag...

1 Place your bike on the center stand...

2 Start engine and establish a steady idle at 212ºF (operating temp)...

3 Squeeze in the clutch lever and shift into first gear...

4 Continue holding in the clutch lever and note if the rear wheel coast to stop or not...
if it continues spinning that's unwanted drag... adjust...

To adjust a cable equipped bike turn the small knob clock wise (out)
1/4 turn and test for clutch drag... if your bike is equipped with
hydraulics bleed system for bubbles...

Ultimately you want the rear wheel to coast to a stop when the engine
is idling and first gear selected with the clutch lever is squeezed in...

My friend Kevin goes into more detail in his video "What Are The Causes Of Poor Shifting In Motorcycling?"

 

[RooflessVW]

 

[Oliveoil2]

I’d first try 20w-50, as the manufacturer recommends.

 

[pwillikers]

Thank you for your replies.

This Buell has a rather peculiar hydraulic, vacuum assist, slipper clutch which has no adjustment capability. It consists of a hydraulic piston (#35 in second picture) that pulls on a rod (#19 in the first picture) that pulls on the pressure plate (#24 in the first picture) which separates the clutch plates and disengages the clutch. It also has a vacuum diaphragm (#25 in second picture) that, when the intake vacuum is high (when the revs are up and the throttle is closed), pulls on the same rod, separating the clutch plates thereby slipping the clutch.

The only clutch adjustment is accomplished by swapping the clutch plates for thicker or thinner ones.

Most motorcycles have a push rod through the crankcase that pushes on the pressure plate to disengage the clutch.

I've ordered some Castrol 20W-50 to see if that'll resolve my balky shifting.

 

[BusyLittleShop]

I have used automotive oil (with friction modifiers), AMSOil Dominator 15W-50, in the past based on a recommendation without checking the specs myself and the clutch started slipping.

The holy trinity of science is 1)Reason 2)Observation 3)Experience...
employing those tools we observe that the primary cause clutch slip
are high mileage... mileage is the constant among all of the clutches
that begin to slip... oil choice whether JASO approved or not is not a
constant... High mileage is the constant where all clutches begin to
loose grip due to normal glazing and contaminates that build up over use...

Have you noticed that No rider ever complains about clutch slip when the
bike or clutch is new???

 

[pwillikers]

Your reply is confusing. Irrelevant generalizations are not helpful. The issue is not a slipping clutch but a dragging clutch.

The clutch did slip at one time and it was clearly caused by oil with friction modifiers, not high mileage. The slippage was ameliorated by using the correct JASO MA oil.

 

[BusyLittleShop]

The clutch did slip at one time and it was clearly caused by oil with friction modifiers, not high mileage.

FN Friction modifiers additives are only a small percent of the total oil
product and help the base oil do things that it otherwise could not...
Additives fall into several basic categories but Moly, Phosphors and
Zinc are the most often used friction modifiers... what ever small
percent of FM employed they will not defeat a wet clutch in good
working order...

 

[CleanSump]

Does yours have vacuum assist? Check the vacuum lines.

 

[paulo57509]

If you're tearing into the case, check the basket (#15) for wear, where the clutch plate fingers ride. Wear here can prevent the plates from separating and will cause drag. Might be more of an an issue with dry clutches than wet.

worn ducati clutch basket - Google Search

 

[Pablo]

Hello Gentlemen,

My '09 Buell 1125cr motorcycle (liquid cooled, wet clutch, Rotax manufactured engine - not Harley engine) is balky shifting, particularly finding neutral. It's very notchy and requires a lot more lever force to change gears than it used to. In the past it has shifted very smoothly. The clutch does not drag when disengaged.

I have used automotive oil (with friction modifiers), AMSOil Dominator 15W-50, in the past based on a recommendation without checking the specs myself and the clutch started slipping. I dumped it and filled it with Rotella T6 which is JASO MA2 certified (good for wet clutches). It got better but was not gone. It eventually took three oil changes in rapid succession, cleaning the clutch fiber disks with solvent multiple times and a little bit of riding in between for the slipping to totally abate. I rode around for a few miles in between changes, enough to get the oil good and hot and circulate it throughout the clutch, but, avoided any slipping as to not wear the clutch plates. I've since only used JASO MA2 certified oil (formulated for wet clutches) and the slipping is long gone. I mention this to assert that I'm not interested in revisiting this laborious adventure. I'll only consider using JASO MA2 certified oils.

My most recent oil change was 1.5K miles ago and I used Valvoline 10W-40 Full Synthetic Motorcycle 4-Stroke Oil.

This was one of the best shifting transmissions I've ever owned (three dozen bikes over the years) and I'm determined to make it so again.

Has anyone else experienced this kind of shifting difficulty?

Has anyone found an oil (or other remedy) they can recommend that enables smooth shifting on a high-torque engine that doesn't cause the clutch to slip? Buell recommends SAE 20W-50 (HD 360 - Harley's own brand).

Thanks.

Someone gave you the wrong Amsoil recommendation. This is the correct product:

https://www.amsoil.com/p/15w-50-synthetic-metric-motorcycle-oil-mff/?code=MFFQT-EA?zo=515729

 

[ZX11Rebel]

I own an 2014 EBR 1190RX that has that same ROTAX engine. These engines have a common sump for engine oil and the transmission. They are not like Harley! My EBR developed a notchy shifting condition because the slave cylinder was leaking. This bike also had the heaviest clutch lever pull of any hydraulic operated clutch equipped bike I've ever ridden. So, I fixed two things at once. I installed an OBERON slave cylinder which not only fixed the leak, it reduced the clutch lever effort substantially! EBR(BUELL) also makes/made a reduced effort slave cylinder kit, but you have to change the clutch springs to install it. I don't know if these will fit the early ROTAX engine, but you might give it a try.

 

[benjy]

lots of good info for sure + i always enjoy Kevins vids, prolly forgot more than most might ever know! running oils too long especially the cheaper stuff can cause issues + shared oil supplies + high heat deteriorate oils faster + of course some bikes just shift poorly by nature from poor part tolerances, theres always a reason!!

 

[pwillikers]

Thanks for the replies.

CleanSump: Good suggestion. Yes it has vacuum lines. (#25 in the picture of post #7). The vacuum only actuates the slipper function. If there were a vacuum leak, the slipper function would cease to function. It would have no effect on lever actuated hydraulic clutch disengagement which is where the issue is. (This is a weird clutch, see post #7).

Paolo57509: Good point. I'll examine the basket next time I have it apart.

Pablo: Thanks for the AMSOil correction.

ZX11Rebel: Nice bike! I've never seen a blue 1190RX. It's a good look for sure. A while back I was considering buying a 2014 1190RX until the test ride where I felt the excessive clutch pull and had second thoughts. It was also pretty hard core and I'm getting old. The clutch was a really tough pull to disengage as you comment. In 2015 EBR successfully redesigned the clutch for reduced effort. I believe the 1190 and the 1125 have the same clutch mechanisms. I'm glad you were able to fix yours.

In the past I did replace my (leaking) clutch slave cylinder with the redesigned EBR replacement. It's been fine since.

I'm relatively certain that the hydraulic and vacuum mechanisms are working as designed. I'm thinking that the clutch plates are sticking together and just not fully releasing, hence the notion to try some other oils.

 

[HangFire]

The holy trinity of science is 1)Reason 2)Observation 3)Experience...

Science holds nothing holy, and has no trinity. It has Facts, which are mutually confirmable observations, hypothesis, experiments, and theories.

Observation and Experience are variants of Facts, but if not handled as such, become only Anecdotes.

Does yours have vacuum assist? Check the vacuum lines.

From the previous post, it does, and this is what I would suspect more than the oil. Not just the vacuum line, but the entire slipper mechanism should be verified.

A dragging (not slipping) clutch would be the other prime suspect.

 

[Mackelroy]

Hello Gentlemen,

My '09 Buell 1125cr motorcycle (liquid cooled, wet clutch, Rotax manufactured engine - not Harley engine) is balky shifting, particularly finding neutral. It's very notchy and requires a lot more lever force to change gears than it used to. In the past it has shifted very smoothly. The clutch does not drag when disengaged.

I have used automotive oil (with friction modifiers), AMSOil Dominator 15W-50, in the past based on a recommendation without checking the specs myself and the clutch started slipping. I dumped it and filled it with Rotella T6 which is JASO MA2 certified (good for wet clutches). It got better but was not gone. It eventually took three oil changes in rapid succession, cleaning the clutch fiber disks with solvent multiple times and a little bit of riding in between for the slipping to totally abate. I rode around for a few miles in between changes, enough to get the oil good and hot and circulate it throughout the clutch, but, avoided any slipping as to not wear the clutch plates. I've since only used JASO MA2 certified oil (formulated for wet clutches) and the slipping is long gone. I mention this to assert that I'm not interested in revisiting this laborious adventure. I'll only consider using JASO MA2 certified oils.

My most recent oil change was 1.5K miles ago and I used Valvoline 10W-40 Full Synthetic Motorcycle 4-Stroke Oil.

This was one of the best shifting transmissions I've ever owned (three dozen bikes over the years) and I'm determined to make it so again.

Has anyone else experienced this kind of shifting difficulty?

Has anyone found an oil (or other remedy) they can recommend that enables smooth shifting on a high-torque engine that doesn't cause the clutch to slip? Buell recommends SAE 20W-50 (HD 360 - Harley's own brand).

Thanks.

Valvoline full synthetic says ma2 but its very slick to meet that gate(not seen a reported ma 2 oil have issues till that one) , i had slippage issues with it, the Dino oil works fine.

 

[T120]

All dragging probs, in my experience, are due to overfilling or incorrect assy/adjustment of plate springs