JASO Wet Clutch Additive?

[KrisZ]

There is no such thing as "for wet clutch" oil...

This must stem back to the "Oil is Oil" thread in the PCMO forum, lol.

If I was selling that bike, I'd just go to Walmart and get some Valvoline 4T motorcycle oil and change the oil before selling it. I've used it for many years in many motorcycles and it worked well, even in the Hayabusa.

But it is a correct statement. What exactly makes an oil a "wet clutch" oil or and oil "for wet clutches"? The answer is nothing, except don't make them slip.

I don't know what's currently in my BMW K1200S, but it's green and looks clean though the oil level tube, so I'm going to run it at least 3k miles. But after that I'm going with my go-to "motorcycle" oil, Delvac 1300 Super 15w40. We'll see how it does in this powerful machine.

 

[ZeeOSix]

But it is a correct statement. What exactly makes an oil a "wet clutch" oil or and oil "for wet clutches"? The answer is nothing, except don't make them slip.

The whole purpose of JASO MA/MA1/MA2 was to show which oils are better suited for wet clutch use and are considered oils "for wet clutch use". So my viewpoint is those oils are "wet clutch approved" or "for wet clutch use", and oils that don't say they meet the JASO spec are not considered to be "wet clutch approved". The oils without a "meets JASO" statement may still work OK based on simply trying them in the bike, but they aren't really meant to be used in wet clutches.

 

[KrisZ]

The whole purpose of JASO MA/MA1/MA2 was to show which oils are better suited for wet clutch use and are considered oils "for wet clutch use". So my viewpoint is those oils are "wet clutch approved" or "for wet clutch use", and oils that don't say they meet the JASO spec are not considered to be "wet clutch approved". The oils without a "meets JASO" statement may still work OK based on simply trying them in the bike, but they aren't really meant to be used in wet clutches.

That’s like saying people that tested negative for aids don’t have aids and people that didn’t get tested are considered to have aids.

This test has been around for ages, by now we should know what specific attributes/additives or whatever else makes an oil wet clutch compatible. Yet we don’t.
And the virgin oil analysis of the so called motorcycle oils don’t look any different than an equivalent car oils.

 

[ZeeOSix]

That’s like saying people that tested negative for aids don’t have aids and people that didn’t get tested are considered to have aids.

This test has been around for ages, by now we should know what specific attributes/additives or whatever else makes an oil wet clutch compatible. Yet we don’t.
And the virgin oil analysis of the so called motorcycle oils don’t look any different than an equivalent car oils.

I'd rather just use JASO rated motorcycle oil than become my own "test program". If someone uses a non-JASO rated oil in a wet clutch, and it works for them, then great ... do it. But I'm not going to experiment with my motorcycles when I can just use oil that is JASO rated for wet clutch use.

 

[BusyLittleShop]

The oils without a "meets JASO" statement may still work OK based on simply trying them in the bike, but they aren't really meant to be used in wet clutches.

I agree... non JASO may still work based on simply trying because
JASO does not test oils. They register oils based on manufacturer
data and site. Most of the data is generated by additive package
manufacturers. The system is just for registration at $365 per oil...

So naturally my customers aren't happy to learn JASO doesn't test to
ensure the standard was met... they feel JASO logo is not worth the extra
bucks because they don't know for sure if an oil is wet clutch compatible or
not until they pour it in their engines... I have to agree with them that JASO
is not much help because even if the oil is not compatible the submitter is
protected from being identified in order to protect market share...

Quote JASO
"The Panel may disclose the results of market surveys in a manner such
that particular names of submitters and their oil products are not identifiable."

 

[BusyLittleShop]

I'd rather just use JASO rated motorcycle oil than become my own "test program".

Good but you become your own test program given the fact that JASO does not test oils to insure the wet clutch compatible standard was met...

 

[ZeeOSix]

I agree... non JASO may still work based on simply trying because
JASO does not test oils. They register oils based on manufacturer
data and site. Most of the data is generated by additive package
manufacturers. The system is just for registration at $365 per oil...

It can't meet JASO specs if it doesn't pass the friction tests. It's more than the additive package. The friction test specs are there to ensure the oil formulation gives adequate wet clutch operation in terms of not slipping from the friction modifiers in the oil formulation.

So naturally my customers aren't happy to learn JASO doesn't test to
ensure the standard was met... they feel JASO logo is not worth the extra
bucks because they don't know for sure if an oil is wet clutch compatible or
not until they pour it in their engines... I have to agree with them that JASO
is not much help because even if the oil is not compatible the submitter is
protected from being identified in order to protect market share...

An oil can't get the JASO logo unless the manufacturer sends all the test data. Just because JASO doesn't test the oil doesn't mean the oil wasn't tested per the JASO requirements. The companies that just put "meets JASO requirements" on the bottle may or may not have done the friction testing. But I'd think if they put a statement like that on the bottle they better be able to prove their statement or be open to a lawsuit somewhere down the line.

Quote JASO
"The Panel may disclose the results of market surveys in a manner such
that particular names of submitters and their oil products are not identifiable."

They just say that because they don't want to hurt the seller. But they also basically say if they find an oil doesn't meet the specs then the manufacture will be asked to rectify the issue.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Good but you become your own test program because JASO does not test oils to insure the standard was met...

Just like I said in my last post above, the requirement for an oil to get the JASO logo the oil manufactures must test and submit the test results that JASO lays out. Just because JASO doesn't test the oil doesn't mean the oil hasn't been tested per JASO requirements. This has been hashed over in about every JASO thread in this forum. You think oil manufactuers just pay the $365 to get a logo without proving to JASO that it meets the requirments?

 

[BusyLittleShop]

They just say that because they don't want to hurt the seller.

True... they protect the seller at the expense of the consumer... its all about the Benjarmins...

 

[ZeeOSix]

Sure Benjamin ...

 

[BusyLittleShop]

You think oil manufactuers just pay the $365 to get a logo without proving to JASO that it meets the requirments?

Who knows without the burden of testing to establish a transparent wet clutch compatible standard???

 

[ZeeOSix]

Who knows without the burden of testing to establish a transparent wet clutch compatible standard???

Well, you can either trust or not trust any oils that have the JASO registration or say "meets JASO requirements". If someone can trust an oil that doesn't say anything about meeting JASO specs, then I'd think they could certainly trust an oil that does meet JASO. I'll do the former because it's better than me being my own "does it work or not test program" on my motorcycles. I'm not going to save a few bucks to be the motorcycle oil tester, lol But if someone is into that, then go for it ... it's not my "test machine".

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Well, you can either trust or not trust any oils that have the JASO registration or say "meets JASO requirements".

JASO charges $365 per oil X 1,537 approvals for a $561,000 profit... so would it kill them to buy the equipment and test the manufacture claims and not just sell logos claiming the standard was met??? after all that is how you build trust in the market place...

 

[KrisZ]

The way I see it is that there were no wide spread problems with wet clutches before JASO was established and there are no problems today.

What has changed though is the proliferation of “motorcycle specific” oils that are a lot more expensive than normal car oils without having anything specific that would justify it.

So yes, I can totally see the argument for Benjamins.

 

[ZeeOSix]

JASO charges $365 per oil X 1,537 approvals for a $561,000 profit... so would it kill them to buy the equipment and test the manufacture claims and not just sell logos claiming the standard was met??? after all that is how you build trust in the market place...

If JASO tested every oil in a laboratory they built, the cost would probably be at least 10 times that. $365 per oil is actually pretty cheap IMO for all the administrative efforts they do.

 

[ZeeOSix]

The way I see it is that there were no wide spread problems with wet clutches before JASO was established and there are no problems today.

What has changed though is the proliferation of “motorcycle specific” oils that are a lot more expensive than normal car oils without having anything specific that would justify it.

So yes, I can totally see the argument for Benjamins.

As time went on, the automotive oil formulations kept adding AW/AF additives to reduce friction and gain fuel mileage, and that's why JASO came to be. Apparently there was an issue being seen, so I highly doubt they came up with JASO just for the fun of doing it. They aren't getting rich at $365 a pop. I have heard of some bike owners experiencing some clutch slip with non-JASO rated oil, but it's not a huge thing going on. But like said before, I'm not into being a "test bed" for what non-JASO cycle oils work or not in my bikes.

 

[02SE]

I just want to know when 38 became too old to ride a Sportbike? We have five sportbikes, and are definitely older than 38.

Ventilated gear is great on hot days.

FWIW, I used Motul 300V car oil in shared-sump sportbikes, before the 4T version was available. I don't think the formulation has changed much if at all. The high Moly content in that oil has always been present.

 

[Jetronic]

The ravenol motobike 4t ester 10W-30 I bought last (for use in a car engine btw) contains more moly than a typical acea oil. also more zddp than an acea c3 but less detergents than an A3/B4

 

[SuperSalad]

Just like I said in my last post above, the requirement for an oil to get the JASO logo the oil manufactures must test and submit the test results that JASO lays out. Just because JASO doesn't test the oil doesn't mean the oil hasn't been tested per JASO requirements. This has been hashed over in about every JASO thread in this forum. You think oil manufactuers just pay the $365 to get a logo without proving to JASO that it meets the requirments?

This, like every other JASO related thread these guys chime in on, would fit right into the r/ConfidentlyIncorrect subreddit.

You're fighting the good fight, Zee, but it isn't worth your time or frustration to argue with those who are convinced they are correct despite having zero experience.

 

[KrisZ]

I didn’t realize I was involved in a battle of good vs evil.