What I have learned from BITOG

MolaKule · Dec 9, 2004

quote:

What might be lacking is also important. I’m still looking for proof, or at least scientific evidence, that the wear data gleaned from the basic UOAs done on random vehicles under uncontrolled conditions in the manner posted here is a reliable gauge of an oil’s performance with regard to engine longevity.

Is it here somewhere and I've missed it?

The UOA's are a global snapshot of many oils, driving conditions, engine response to oils, etc.

Post the UOA's, discuss them, get opinions, and derive your own conclusions. Except for the cost of the UOA, the rest is free.

XS650 · Dec 9, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by Last_Z:

quote:

Originally posted by XS650:

quote:

Originally posted by pitzel:
For all the people who badmouth FRAM, no one has yet to show a UOA that shows any detrimental effects from the use of a FRAM filter.

I've stopped buyin 'em because of this site, but definitely will not discard any of my inventory of existing filters based on some unfounded paranoia of cardboard endcaps or nitrile ADBV's

Click to expand...

Pitzel, no one gives a rats arse if you use Frams. Go ahead and use them.

Click to expand...

XS650,

Aren't you being a little rough?

Nope.

novadude · Dec 9, 2004

Terry, I wouldn't suppose that SAE paper is available for (free) public consumption, is it? That sounds like a good read.

berge · Dec 9, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by Brons2:

quote:

I have not seen or heard of anyone getting sludge when they follow the mnf. recommended OCI, adhere to regular or severe service re driving conditions, AND use the type of oil they're supposed to be using.
Do you have any examples that fill the above criteria?

Click to expand...

Do a Google search on Chrysler 2.7 liter or Dodge 2.7 liter. You'll see.

what is it going to show. That people who did not follow the manufacturers maintenance requirements had engine problems?

garyb80 · Dec 9, 2004

Well here is what I've learned.

1. I've learned to listen with my heart.

2. I can now understand Sanscrit.

3. I have learned to divide by zero.

(Yes, I stole this from Dilbert)

jthorner · Dec 9, 2004

Berge said:

quote:

I have not seen or heard of anyone getting sludge when they follow the mnf. recommended OCI, adhere to regular or severe service re driving conditions, AND use the type of oil they're supposed to be using.
Do you have any examples that fill the above criteria?

First, it isn't my job to convince you of anything. Do you own research and draw your own conclusions.

Personally I don't think Toyota, VW, Dodge and other auto makers would be extending warranties on problem engines if the only time there were problems were when the owner abused the vehicle. You may choose to insist that there is no such thing as an engine which sludges up for any reason other than neglect. Toyota took your position for several years eventually backed down. VW and Dodge have just recently done the same on certain vehicles. For example, you can read about VW's recent admission of the problem at:

http://www.autosafety.org/article.php?scid=122&did=963

Put another way, I could ask you to "prove" that all cases of sludged engines are due to neglect.

Research as you like and draw the conclusions you like. It is, still, a free internet.

My general view is that many owners neglect their vehicles and that this neglect causes problems. However, I also have come to believe that manufacturers MAKE MISTAKES in design, specification and/or assembly and that often those mistakes end up costing the end customer lots of money and wasted time. If you believe that manufacturers never make those kinds of mistakes ... well, I don't know what to say

.

John

[ December 09, 2004, 09:43 PM: Message edited by: jthorner ]

berge · Dec 9, 2004

with all due respect, you are the one that started a thread saying automakers were negligently extending OCI's without making sure they're sound.
the onus, therefore, is on you to prove your point.

I have yet to see ONE verified case of an owner who followed their OCI recommendation(regular or severe), used the proper oil and had engine damage from sludge or gelling of the oil.

I have searched and can't find any that are VERIFIED BY AN INDEPENDANT THIRD PARTY.

Do you know of any or not?

Matt89 · Dec 9, 2004

Ive learned that thinking too hard about auto maintenance can give you a headache and p*** off your wife

Brian Barnhart · Dec 9, 2004

Terry,

I’m looking for something that shows that UOAs can be used as a reliable gauge of an oil’s performance with regard to engine longevity. The SAE paper you reference talks about using UOAs as an engine design tool to detect actual or imminent engine component failures. In my cursory look at the document, I found no mention of using wear data to gauge oil performance, much less as a tool to compare performance differences between oils. Nor did I find oil choice talked about anywhere in the document.

In short, the SAE paper doesn’t address the issue of oil performance. It outlines a method to aid in engine design and testing, not a tool for gauging an oil’s performance. From what I’ve read, the paper doesn’t attempt to correlate the UOA method discussed and oil performance. Therefore, at this point, I’m still looking for accurate correlation between the type of UOAs routinely reported at this site, and an oil’s performance with regard to engine longevity.

MaximaGuy · Dec 9, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by Matt89:
Ive learned that thinking too hard about auto maintenance can give you a headache and p*** off your wife

I second what Matt89 said .... my wife and I get into an argument if I tell her that I going to fix my car, I then go ahead and fix it, and make it up saying that we saved $$$ amount by not going to the stealerships for servicing and that we will have a wonderful dinner in a Thai resturant. Things promptly settle down.

But I must add, BITOG forums are seminal for understanding ur vehicle (just not oils) and Iam glad Iam a member.

Brons2 · Dec 9, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by berge:

quote:

Originally posted by Brons2:

quote:

I have not seen or heard of anyone getting sludge when they follow the mnf. recommended OCI, adhere to regular or severe service re driving conditions, AND use the type of oil they're supposed to be using.
Do you have any examples that fill the above criteria?

Click to expand...

Do a Google search on Chrysler 2.7 liter or Dodge 2.7 liter. You'll see.

Click to expand...

what is it going to show. That people who did not follow the manufacturers maintenance requirements had engine problems?

It's going to show that people that DID follow the manufacturer's suggested intervals DID have engine sludge.

Terry · Dec 9, 2004

Brian, you stated:

quote:

Therefore, at this point, I’m still looking for accurate correlation between the type of UOAs routinely reported at this site, and an oil’s performance with regard to engine longevity.

Maybe there are only a few that can do what you ask with the basic spectro ?

I'm betting my business on it.

There exists proprietary data (not broad enough @ BITOG) that will sate your appetite but it is not free or shared in a scientific paper.

The data is not simply basic spectro either. Combine knowledge of in depth SAE/ASTM bench testing of engines and lubes,ALL kinds of inspection and analysis techniques, and over many years a guy could correlate all that and start to see patterns of wear and oil condition in basic spectro that would be meaningful,relatively accurate and cost effective for the average consumer.

You would have to have both access and long term experience with that proprietary data to correlate to the spectro signatures of BOTH the engine and the basic lube formulations.

This is one of the key reasons I can sell a interpretation that none of the labs can affordably match when we are talking automotive engines and lubes.

BITOG is only a very small free part of sharing that kind of info.

Dyson Analysis is working on a SUPER Analysis that will encorporate as much testing as we can afford and the proprietary interpretation of that data. I just have not found a good partner in the labs that has all the testing I want in the package. Kind of a mini SAE/ASTM 'screen' UOA for the enthusiast. For a person like you who I assume has some engineering background it would seem more objective and therefore acceptable intellectually.

lukey · Dec 9, 2004

I've learned you can't have your cake and eat it too........

tom slick · Dec 9, 2004

Excellent post.

I was a "pennzoil is the worst" until i started reading here. now 2 of my vehicles have pennzoil LL in their galleys.

i just want to add a little of my opinion of fram and castrol. if thier products were not marketed as priced as "premium" i wouldn't have an issue with them. when you use cheaper construction and cheaper base stocks but still sell them for the same price as companies that use better materials, that's where i have a problem. that means it's only about marketing and profit.
if frams were $1.99 each and castrol syntec was $2.50 a quart i'd say they were a great bargain.

Brons2 · Dec 9, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by berge:
Brons2

your proof is the center for auto safety bitchsheet and another guy on the 4X4 wire who bought a USED chrysler that had engine sludge?

Are you joking?

If you have any proof, please post it. If not, please don't waste your time.

I posted the first two links I found on a web search. This is the third time I have invited you to actually do some searching. However, you seem uninterested to do so.

YOU are the person posting information that is controversial. Why don't you prove your point? Are you saying that everyone who has had sludge on a Chrysler 2.7, VW 1.8 turbo or Toyota 3.0 is due to faulty maintenance? This is what I must extrapolate from your postings. The sheer number of complaints on these issue belie your opinion, however.

Brons2 · Dec 10, 2004

berge · Dec 10, 2004

you're proving my point for me.
this quote is taken directly from your proof.

"On the other hand I will say that until recently the dealers were not seeing this problem with vehicles they maintained. Meaning, if the owner used the Toyota or Lexus dealer for oil changes and had the regular maintenance performed there, the engines did not suffer the sludge problem."

I scanned through those links, there is not one case which meets the criteria I have outlined below, which, I do not think is unreasonable at all. I do not think it is right to blame an automaker for fault if the owner of the vehicle has not maintained their responsibility and maintained their vehicle according to the manual.

I will say again that I have yet to see ONE verified case of an owner who followed their OCI recommendation(regular or severe), used the proper oil and had engine damage from sludge or gelling of the oil.

My neighbour, a successful lawyer, had a three year old buick that he leased since new. The engine seized solid at 52000km's. He had a total of two oil changes done on the vehicle in 52000km's. This is with quickie lube dino. If he had just one more oil change, the engine probably would have survived, the lease would have been up, somebody would have bought a 'mint' 99 Buick with low miles, the engine would have seized, and you'd be hearing about another complaint about sludge, in a GM 3.8L. Right?

I am done with this debate. Nobody has shown any proof that anybody has gotten sludge from a vehicle while following the mnf. OCI, the proper oil and maintenance. People either don't take care of their cars or they buy a used car which has already been neglected and blame the car manufacturers.

Terry · Dec 10, 2004

berge, your neighbor is a moron for a educated man. Poor example.

quote:

People either don't take care of their cars or they buy a used car which has already been neglected and blame the car manufacturers.

Wrong.

Most people are too lazy,meek,ignorant, to pursue the issues. Until the engine seizes.

I have a little background in both oil analysis and owning a 2001 Toyota that was developing sludge using M1, Schaeffers, Redline syn oils. Because I performed oil analysis periodically I could track the issue and correct for the DESIGN flaws through chemistry adjustments. I also received a letter offering extended engine repairs for the issue in my well maintained and TESTED car from Toyota USA. Most of the cars that were offered the extended warranty had been using Toyota oils and filters serviced at Toyota dealers. Imagine that.

No doubt there are dishonest and stupid people that don't maintain properly but in oil analysis results I have seen the opposite.

I have nothing to prove.

berge · Dec 10, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by Terry:
berge, your neighbor is a moron for a educated man. Poor example.

quote:

People either don't take care of their cars or they buy a used car which has already been neglected and blame the car manufacturers.

Click to expand...

Wrong.

Most people are too lazy,meek,ignorant, to pursue the issues. Until the engine seizes.

I have a little background in both oil analysis and owning a 2001 Toyota that was developing sludge using M1, Schaeffers, Redline syn oils. Because I performed oil analysis periodically I could track the issue and correct for the DESIGN flaws through chemistry adjustments. I also received a letter offering extended engine repairs for the issue in my well maintained and TESTED car from Toyota USA. Most of the cars that were offered the extended warranty had been using Toyota oils and filters serviced at Toyota dealers. Imagine that.

No doubt there are dishonest and stupid people that don't maintain properly but in oil analysis results I have seen the opposite.

I have nothing to prove.

well, my neighbour is a moron when it comes to auto maintenance, yes. In the rich dad poor dad analogy, he's definitely going to end up the poor dad.
did your vehicle get sludged up?
did you buy it new?
I'm not going to question your maintenance practices for obvious reasons.

Brons2 · Dec 10, 2004

Berge, there are plenty of people with Chrysler 2.7 problems that claim to have receipts for dino oil changes every 3000 miles. Can they all be liars? Am I going to ask them to fax me the proof for your edification? No.

I am not claiming, nor have I ever, that most engines don't work well if you adhere to manufacturers' OCI. But there are those exceptions to the rule, as seen in the many, many websites that have sprung up on these problems.

Probably the best one I have seen is www.dontbuyone.com, they are asking anyone with less than 120K to email them blown engine details. They get a few every day. This particular engine is a ticking time bomb, through no fault of the owners. Yet, you deny what is obvious to the most untrained layman. Why? What evidence to the contrary do you have to offer? Are you indeed calling all these people liars?

What I have learned from BITOG

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