Wear or Gas Mileage

[Cujet]

Well a V6 Accord goes 800,000+ miles on 20 grade with extended drains. How much farther would it go with 30 grade?

I'm glad you brought that up as an example, as the Honda V6's are perfect case studies.

1) They use timing belts, not chains. So the need to protect a chain is eliminated.
2) Some years employed low tension piston rings. These clearly had short lives with the thin oils and extended lives with higher viscosity
3) These 3.2 through 3.7L V6 engines can in racing conditions, sometimes develop rod knock problems. This happens with inadequate viscosity and high RPM.

As I continue to mention, it's not the low viscosity that is the problem, issues generally stem from a manufacturer's choice of inadequate design, inadequate component quality coupled with long OCI's, fuel dilution and heavy soot levels. Getting a Ford 5.4L engine to live a million miles on 0W-20 requires a redesign. Or for the 5.4L, just choose 10W-40 and enjoy long engine life.

 

[Al]

Wonder if there is an actual oil test that involves a actual engine to test wear?

The closest thing to an engine test is that I assumed Subaru did both testing and calculation to determine that in two identical engines...different in only compression and nonturbo/turbo. Same rpm 205HP vs 250+ HP. 20 wt doesn't cut it. Pretty much why I switched.

 

[OVERKILL]

GF-5 & GF-6 what's that?
Is that what you buy when you can't get A3/B3 & A3/B4 ?

Just joking.....

Yes, you have posted those EHC data sheets before, but I would like to see them again if you have the time. They are buried deep in past threads

Here:
Dexos 5w-30:

10w-40 HDEO:

And their application guide:

 

[Gene K]

I'm glad you brought that up as an example, as the Honda V6's are perfect case studies.

1) They use timing belts, not chains. So the need to protect a chain is eliminated.
2) Some years employed low tension piston rings. These clearly had short lives with the thin oils and extended lives with higher viscosity
3) These 3.2 through 3.7L V6 engines can in racing conditions, sometimes develop rod knock problems. This happens with inadequate viscosity and high RPM.

As I continue to mention, it's not the low viscosity that is the problem, issues generally stem from a manufacturer's choice of inadequate design, inadequate component quality coupled with long OCI's, fuel dilution and heavy soot levels. Getting a Ford 5.4L engine to live a million miles on 0W-20 requires a redesign. Or for the 5.4L, just choose 10W-40 and enjoy long engine life.

So the 4.6L lives to 600,000 but the extra stroke of the 5.4L causes it to die an early death?

 

[OVERKILL]

So the 4.6L lives to 600,000 but the extra stroke of the 5.4L causes it to die an early death?

Don't think so, but the 5.4L ended up becoming the 3V, while it is the 2V engines (of both examples) that have the reputation for insane longevity.

The 5.4L also tended to be in much heavier service than its 4.6L sibling, who typically saw insane mileage in taxi and limo service.

 

[Blinker]

Awesome, another 5W-20 vs 5W-30 conversation.

 

[Gene K]

Don't think so, but the 5.4L ended up becoming the 3V, while it is the 2V engines (of both examples) that have the reputation for insane longevity.

The 5.4L also tended to be in much heavier service than its 4.6L sibling, who typically saw insane mileage in taxi and limo service.

4.6L also became a 3V in the Mustang, Explorer, Sport Trac, Mountaineer, F150 (Although the 2V version continued as well).

That said I understand your point in that the 5.4 was made in higher numbers.

 

[OVERKILL]

4.6L also became a 3V in the Mustang, Explorer, Sport Trac, Mountaineer, F150 (Although the 2V version continued as well).

That said I understand your point in that the 5.4 was made in higher numbers.

Sorry, I should have been more clear, the 3V 5.4L is the engine that has the reputation for being a basketcase, while the 2V version has a great reputation for durability, as does the 2V 4.6L. When most people think of 5.4L problems, they are thinkin of the 3V, while the 3V 4.6L wasn't used in trucks, so it isn't covered by the same stigma.

 

[Gene K]

Sorry, I should have been more clear, the 3V 5.4L is the engine that has the reputation for being a basketcase, while the 2V version has a great reputation for durability, as does the 2V 4.6L. When most people think of 5.4L problems, they are thinkin of the 3V, while the 3V 4.6L wasn't used in trucks, so it isn't covered by the same stigma.

It was an option on the F150 for several years. 4.6L 2V 4R75, 4.6L 3V 6R80, and 5.4L 3V 6R80. Unlike the Mustang the F150 4.6L 3V had an iron block. However it apparently didn't have a high take rate because I don't see them that often. The last one I saw was a 2009.

 

[OVERKILL]

It was an option on the F150 for several years. 4.6L 2V 4R75, 4.6L 3V 6R80, and 5.4L 3V 6R80. Unlike the Mustang the F150 4.6L 3V had an iron block. However it apparently didn't have a high take rate because I don't see them that often. The last one I saw was a 2009.

Yeah, I've never seen one, lol.

Seen plenty of 4.6L 2V and 5.4 trucks and vans though.

 

[Gene K]

The closest thing to an engine test is that I assumed Subaru did both testing and calculation to determine that in two identical engines...different in only compression and nonturbo/turbo. Same rpm 205HP vs 250+ HP. 20 wt doesn't cut it. Pretty much why I switched.

Ford apparently did testing because they decided the 4.0L OHC had to stay 5W-30 when they backspeced most all the other non-highperformance engines.

I'm a firm believer that the problems with the cam chains in some Fords are something other than oil viscosity or OCI. I know to many owners who did nothing special and the trucks are still on the original chain, phasers (if equipped) and tensioners decades later and others took all kinds of proactive actions (5W-30, 3000 mi oci, synthetic) and didn't make 100,000 mi.

 

[ZedzAmg]

The Amg Cla 45 is specced with 0w20 from the factory. The 45s is running a closed deck with a peak boost pressure of 30psi. The amount of stress in the engine is astronomical, and it is specced 0w20. There are plenty of cars in the fleet to make up gas mileage, so Amg must believe it is good to go. If that car can run 0w20 im 100% certain any other grocery getter will be fine.

 

[FordMan59]

It might have gotten 40-45mpg and been driven 85-100mph but it didnt get [email protected]

I drove it daily to and from work on construction sites at those speeds for approximately a year and a half between Salisbury, NC and Winston Salem, NC (all 4 lane) only other driving was on rural 2 lane roads in the 55-60 MPH range and it consistently broke 40 MPG. It was capable of 50 MPG on the highway at 55 MPH with the manual 4 speed used in the Escort Pony.

 

[BigShug681]

I'm glad you brought that up as an example, as the Honda V6's are perfect case studies.

1) They use timing belts, not chains. So the need to protect a chain is eliminated.
2) Some years employed low tension piston rings. These clearly had short lives with the thin oils and extended lives with higher viscosity
3) These 3.2 through 3.7L V6 engines can in racing conditions, sometimes develop rod knock problems. This happens with inadequate viscosity and high RPM.

As I continue to mention, it's not the low viscosity that is the problem, issues generally stem from a manufacturer's choice of inadequate design, inadequate component quality coupled with long OCI's, fuel dilution and heavy soot levels. Getting a Ford 5.4L engine to live a million miles on 0W-20 requires a redesign. Or for the 5.4L, just choose 10W-40 and enjoy long engine life.

So are you saying I should be running 10w40 in my 4.6 crown Vic to get long engine life??

 

[Blinker]

The 2009-2010 F150 was available with both the 4.6 2V and 4.6 3V.

The 4.6 3V is extremely common in the XLT SuperCrew configuration, if it wasn’t equipped with the 5.4. The 4.6 2v was found more in the XL, STX trims.

 

[Accent Abuser]

Y'all are lightweights, I've got 11 quarts of M1 15w-50 just waiting for the temperatures to go above freezing.

 

[clinebarger]

So the 4.6L lives to 600,000 but the extra stroke of the 5.4L causes it to die an early death?

Any light duty engine is lucky to live that long. And I've seen MANY 2V Modular Engines need Timing Chains/Guides/Tensioners in the 150-200,000 mile range....In fact I'd say broken Bank 1 Upper Guides are quite common. And the Tensioners blow seals just like the 3V engines without the VCT issues associated with it.

I've ran across some real problematic 3V 5.4L engines....Where a HV Melling Pump, Along with new OE Ford Timing Components & VCT Phasers didn't completely cure Bank 1 VCT issues/noises. Even though the Cam Journals looked good.
Tear the engine down for inspection & it becomes obvious that bearing clearances are at or exceeding Ford's own limit specifications. And one can tell it was built that way.
3V's built within spec will of course last longer with less VCT issues.

 

[SR5]

Here:

Thank you

To help others translate, here is the KV100 viscosity
EHC50 ~5.4 cSt
EHC110 ~11 cSt
100N ~ 4.2 cSt
150N ~ 5.2 cSt
500N ~ 11 cSt

Hmmm ..... an SAE30 monograde formulated on EHC110 would ring my bell.

 

[SR5]

Y'all are lightweights, I've got 11 quarts of M1 15w-50 just waiting for the temperatures to go above freezing.

I'm ready for any Pepsi taste test challenge you are prepared to throw my way. I have a jug of this for starters....

 

[Spyderman24_7]

I'd rather have a bit of added protection for (possibly) less wear long term than save a bit at the petrol pump. Nissan specs 5W30 for my engine so that's all I've ever used and will continue to use.