SAE 20 non-detergent oil

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MolaKule Thanks for the kind words. The reason for sludge? is it just starting it occasionally all winter, or is it because I use Non-detergent oil? I am fearful of dislodging any hardened oil deposits tucked into the corners of the engine by using detergent oil. Old timers have told me that many times," If you Don't Know,Don't take a chance". I've also been told by a couple restoration shops that they use 30W as a rule. I think your suggestion of 5W20 was good, if I can get it non-detergent. Thanks Again.
 
I believe Molakule is advising you switch to a detergent oil and made many remarks about the things that ND is missing.

If you are concerned about breaking up deposits, do some short change intervals until it starts coming out clean. Does the car have an oil filter? I know most of our old boats didn't save for the 312 Ford we had in our 1931 Chris-Craft, which had an external canister-style bypass filter on it.
 
kschachn, Shannow, So are you saying that 30W would be equivalent to the 20W of old? So maybe use a 5W30 non-detergent? Thanks for your interest.
 
Overkill, I would love to switch to a detergent oil,so many more choices, and I was glad to be informed about what ND oils lack, that's big! The car has an aftermarket fram oil filter probably from the 40's . it certainly doesn't filter everything because the oil in the engine is sadly not under pressure so to speak. Thanks for your much appreciated input.
 
Originally Posted by fleetwood62
kschachn, Shannow, So are you saying that 30W would be equivalent to the 20W of old? So maybe use a 5W30 non-detergent? Thanks for your interest.

One needs to be a bit more careful on the nomenclature, the "W" rating of the oil such as 20W or 5W is largely irrelevant here unless you are operating the car in cold temperatures. Even if you aren't then a winter (W) rating of 5W or 0W is not going to make any difference. The grade of the oil is the number after the dash and what determines operating viscosity. If it is true that a 20W-20 has an HTHS of 2.9 or so, that is near 3.0 which is where many 30-grade oils live. So yes, a 5W-30 (a 30 grade) looks appropriate for your vehicle - or a 10W-30 depending on whether you plan to operate at or below 0F.

As I mentioned before and as MolaKule confirmed there is no reason to run an ND oil, only downsides. Especially with no or ineffective filtration the additives in the oil will help to keep contaminates in suspension rather than settling out.
 
That is a real beauty. I for one would love to see more pics of her.

Regarding the oil, if the op switches to a detergent 20 at this stage, would that end up loosening up any buildup in the engine already and be a cause for concern?
 
Pim Tac, thanks for your service and interest! Here are a few more pics.
[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
 
Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by fleetwood62
kschachn, Shannow, So are you saying that 30W would be equivalent to the 20W of old? So maybe use a 5W30 non-detergent? Thanks for your interest.

One needs to be a bit more careful on the nomenclature, the "W" rating of the oil such as 20W or 5W is largely irrelevant here unless you are operating the car in cold temperatures. Even if you aren't then a winter (W) rating of 5W or 0W is not going to make any difference. The grade of the oil is the number after the dash and what determines operating viscosity. If it is true that a 20W-20 has an HTHS of 2.9 or so, that is near 3.0 which is where many 30-grade oils live. So yes, a 5W-30 (a 30 grade) looks appropriate for your vehicle - or a 10W-30 depending on whether you plan to operate at or below 0F.

As I mentioned before and as MolaKule confirmed there is no reason to run an ND oil, only downsides. Especially with no or ineffective filtration the additives in the oil will help to keep contaminates in suspension rather than settling out.

Why not just order a case of the Citgo "straight" 20 (20w-20) and use that? We talk a lot about the HTHS vis in the context of modern pressure-oiled vehicles always using multi-grade oils, that almost always contain substantial amounts of vis index improvers. I'm not so sure that HTHS is relevant for this engine. Remember, it's not pressure oiled like a modern engine. It uses that odd (from today's perspective) sprayer and dipper set up to deliver oil. I'm not an engineer, but I have read suggestions that this method of oil delivery may be relying upon the lower viscosity of the oil to properly deliver it, via the "dippers" to the bearings. With that in mind, no matter the HTHS values, might the 100C centiStoke value be more relevant? The Citgo 20w-20 "straight" listed in the linked chart, earlier in thread, is 9.0 cSt at 100C. Their 30wt is 12.0 cSt. The modern Xw-30 oils will be similarly "thicker." The OP noted that the engine seemed to idle better using 20 wt oil. There may be something to that. As suggested already, I would check with one of those shops/experts who actually works with engines of this type (splash/dip non-pressurized oiling) to get a better informed oil vis recommendation.
 
Thanks for those extra pictures. She is in amazing shape and very clean.

My brother used to own a older Chevy very similar to that but not in that good of a condition. He regrets selling it but he had no room. He also has a 1949 International KB1 which still runs.

I like modern cars but the old ones like these just make me stop and pause.
 
About 35 years ago, Mobil told us to mix equal parts 10 and 30 to get 20. We used it in working diesel engines with no problems. I drove an early F250 diesel with a 6.9 diesel that could not be plugged in when I was at college in Nebraska. I ran Delvac 1310 for two winters with no issue and it always started.

Mixing 10 and 30 may be frowned upon today, but it used to work in 1950-1980s Caterpillars in my experience.

Finding 10 may be an issue now? Back then we used Delvac 1310 for hydraulic oil so it was easy to access.
 
Forgot to mention in previous reply. I and some friends were into collecting old tractors, me John Deere, good friends IH. A lot of were scared to use detergent oil, but in time, in my area, the collectors I was associated with had over 100 antique tractors all switched over to modern oil with no problems. Changed the oil often t begin with, some of the tractors had no filters, those that did got frequent changes. If an engine was particularly nasty it would get run with an engine oil and diesel fuel mix for a bit, again never an issue. Some of the tractors that got this treatment were used for real farming as well, so it didn't have a long term negative affect that any of us could see.

I knew a guy who ran an Oliver with a Perkins diesel for an afternoon with nothing but half and half oil diesel mix. he used it around the farm yard for light chores, slow engine speed. That tractor went on to be his main farm tractor for plowing and so forth with no issues. In time he used the drained oil/diesel mix as fuel, that did crate am issue with plugged fuel filters.

In my experience people got overly worked up about this issue.
 
The engine was designed for a low additive regime with low oil supply volumes through the dippers....so very much reliant on hydrodynamics of that oil that's in there.

HTHS arose when they realised that the multigrades were not offering the bearing protection that their grade would otherwise have suggested....the multigrade HTHS imum specs were basically made to be that for the next grade down...so 30 got a minimum sped of 2.9, 40 around the 3.5-3.7 mark (eventually).

So definitely pick on HTHS.

If you don't/cant get a minieral 20W20 (which would be my suggestion), then a simple 10W30 dino...e.g.

https://www.pennzoil.com/en_us/prod...6e75bb/Pennzoil-SAE-10W-30-Motor-Oil.pdf

it will be thinner KV wise at any temperature below 100F, and the same HTHS....
 
Remembered another thing from long ago. While we had no issue with detergent oils, unleaded gas was [censored] on valve seats. If the engine does not have have seats installed, I highly recommend an additive of some type.
 
Originally Posted by fleetwood62
MolaKule Thanks for the kind words. The reason for sludge? is it just starting it occasionally all winter, or is it because I use Non-detergent oil?...



The other item I failed to mention was the fact that ND oils also have no Anti-Oxidants. No anti-oxidants means the oil degrades quickly under heat and moisture.

And because ND oils have no metal inhibitors, acids react with metals to further cause degradation via catalysis.

I would interested in seeing a diagram of the lubrication system since you said it has a filter, so some pressurization must occur and possibly it sends oil up into the heads as well?

some scattered info says:

Quote
This generation did not use a fully pressurized oiling system. The connecting rods were oiled using an "oil trough" built into the oil pan that had spray nozzles that squirted a stream of oil at the connecting rods (which were equipped with "dippers"), thus supplying oil to the rod bearings.


Quote
The journal diameter of the 216 engine is between 2.311 inches and 2.312 inches with a bearing clearance between .0010 and .0025 inch. The rod end play is between .004 and .007 inch with a rod bolt tension between 35 ft-lb and 45 ft-lb.
 
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