Does anyone know if the companies offering a 50/50 coolant pre-mix use; distilled, de-ionized, or just plain old tap water for the mixes??
Water 'type' in pre-mixes?
- Thread starter dailydriver
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I don't know but, i do know that deionized wouldn't be good. It's hungry for metals and will cause rust and corrosion until it gets its fill.
Originally Posted By: suspiciousmind
I don't know but, i do know that deionized wouldn't be good. It's hungry for metals and will cause rust and corrosion until it gets its fill.
Please continue. Can you give us the details on how this happens?
I don't know but, i do know that deionized wouldn't be good. It's hungry for metals and will cause rust and corrosion until it gets its fill.
Please continue. Can you give us the details on how this happens?
Me to, as I would like to know about this chemistry
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There are plenty of places where the municipal water is good enough for beer. (And by implausible extention-- servicing one's car.) IIRC Prestone used to sell non-potable but "clean" water for a couple bucks a gallon for mixing.
It would probably be a trade secret if they treated incoming water to remove lime or other nasties. I'd be okay trusting them on that.
It would probably be a trade secret if they treated incoming water to remove lime or other nasties. I'd be okay trusting them on that.
Originally Posted By: Pablo
Originally Posted By: suspiciousmind
I don't know but, i do know that deionized wouldn't be good. It's hungry for metals and will cause rust and corrosion until it gets its fill.
Please continue. Can you give us the details on how this happens?
I'm a machine designer and, years ago i worked with wire "electrical discharge machining"...EDM. This process requires an insulating coolant "dielectric", and in the case of wire EDM, that is deionized water. There was a deionizer built into the system. Only the lowest carbon stainless, precious metals, plastics, ceramics, etc., could be used in the environment due to the corrosive nature of the deionization.
Originally Posted By: suspiciousmind
I don't know but, i do know that deionized wouldn't be good. It's hungry for metals and will cause rust and corrosion until it gets its fill.
Please continue. Can you give us the details on how this happens?
I'm a machine designer and, years ago i worked with wire "electrical discharge machining"...EDM. This process requires an insulating coolant "dielectric", and in the case of wire EDM, that is deionized water. There was a deionizer built into the system. Only the lowest carbon stainless, precious metals, plastics, ceramics, etc., could be used in the environment due to the corrosive nature of the deionization.
Yes, but this does not mean deionized water is corrosive. Even the most ultra pure water with nothing but H2O, mixed with coolant will not be corrosive.
Pure water (and nothing else) in a cooling system is not good, but please tell us why mixing DI water with coolant is not "good"
Pure water (and nothing else) in a cooling system is not good, but please tell us why mixing DI water with coolant is not "good"
It's not too harmful really. It's unnecessary at best though. Deionized water will just reionize itself as quickly as it can...it does by feeding on whatever metals it has available. A couple gallons wouldn't cause much harm but, after eight or ten refills??
Originally Posted By: suspiciousmind
It's not too harmful really. It's unnecessary at best though. Deionized water will just reionize itself as quickly as it can...it does by feeding on whatever metals it has available. A couple gallons wouldn't cause much harm but, after eight or ten refills??
It's not harmful at all mixed with coolant.
It's not too harmful really. It's unnecessary at best though. Deionized water will just reionize itself as quickly as it can...it does by feeding on whatever metals it has available. A couple gallons wouldn't cause much harm but, after eight or ten refills??
It's not harmful at all mixed with coolant.
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Does anyone know if the companies offering a 50/50 coolant pre-mix use; distilled, de-ionized, or just plain old tap water for the mixes??
I don't know, my guess is distilled water. But I never bought/use pre-mixed coolant, I always bought concentrate be it Preston, Peak or Zerex.
Does anyone know if the companies offering a 50/50 coolant pre-mix use; distilled, de-ionized, or just plain old tap water for the mixes??
I don't know, my guess is distilled water. But I never bought/use pre-mixed coolant, I always bought concentrate be it Preston, Peak or Zerex.
Prestone 50/50 states it uses Demineralized water so is is good to use.
Zerex states demineralized water.
http://www.valvoline.com/products/brands/zerex/antifreeze/41
Now, the question becomes:
What's the definition of demineralized, deionized, and distilled? Apparently, it depends on who you ask.
http://www.valvoline.com/products/brands/zerex/antifreeze/41
Now, the question becomes:
What's the definition of demineralized, deionized, and distilled? Apparently, it depends on who you ask.
Originally Posted By: Pablo
It's not harmful at all mixed with coolant.
Exactly. Running just water in the cooling system, be it distilled, deionized, tap water, or puddle water is going to cause corrosion in the cooling system. The whole point of running antifreeze, aside from moving the freezing and boiling points, is to provide corrosion protection that pure water cannot. Engine heat itself speeds up the corrosion reactions if using pure water far more than any difference in water purity would.
It's not harmful at all mixed with coolant.
Exactly. Running just water in the cooling system, be it distilled, deionized, tap water, or puddle water is going to cause corrosion in the cooling system. The whole point of running antifreeze, aside from moving the freezing and boiling points, is to provide corrosion protection that pure water cannot. Engine heat itself speeds up the corrosion reactions if using pure water far more than any difference in water purity would.
What is the point of this thread?
I think we have to trust that 50/50 mix uses water that is suitable for automotive applications. I am confident they don't use sea water to formulate the mix and they probably don't have to use ultra pure water either.
The idea that ultra pure water can rob molecules from materials that it touches seems plausible. BUT....in a closed system, the water would quickly reach equilibrium and "molecule robbing" would cease before any damage was done. If the system was open, meaning a constant flow of new water in one end and water leaving the other end, I suppose it could cause the metal/plastic to become thinner.
That is my opinion. It's a moot point for what we are talking about.
I think we have to trust that 50/50 mix uses water that is suitable for automotive applications. I am confident they don't use sea water to formulate the mix and they probably don't have to use ultra pure water either.
The idea that ultra pure water can rob molecules from materials that it touches seems plausible. BUT....in a closed system, the water would quickly reach equilibrium and "molecule robbing" would cease before any damage was done. If the system was open, meaning a constant flow of new water in one end and water leaving the other end, I suppose it could cause the metal/plastic to become thinner.
That is my opinion. It's a moot point for what we are talking about.
Originally Posted By: doitmyself
What is the point of this thread?
I think we have to trust that 50/50 mix uses water that is suitable for automotive applications. I am confident they don't use sea water to formulate the mix and they probably don't have to use ultra pure water either.
The idea that ultra pure water can rob molecules from materials that it touches seems plausible. BUT....in a closed system, the water would quickly reach equilibrium and "molecule robbing" would cease before any damage was done. If the system was open, meaning a constant flow of new water in one end and water leaving the other end, I suppose it could cause the metal/plastic to become thinner.
That is my opinion. It's a moot point for what we are talking about.
I ask/started this thread only because there IS one company which makes a VERY BIG deal over using de-ionized water over; tap/distilled/etc.
That company is No-Rosion www.no-rosion.com, and yes, it may be just to hype/sell/justify their own product offerings.
Look them up and let me know what you (and all of the other tribos/'techies') think. Bogus or valid points??
What is the point of this thread?
I think we have to trust that 50/50 mix uses water that is suitable for automotive applications. I am confident they don't use sea water to formulate the mix and they probably don't have to use ultra pure water either.
The idea that ultra pure water can rob molecules from materials that it touches seems plausible. BUT....in a closed system, the water would quickly reach equilibrium and "molecule robbing" would cease before any damage was done. If the system was open, meaning a constant flow of new water in one end and water leaving the other end, I suppose it could cause the metal/plastic to become thinner.
That is my opinion. It's a moot point for what we are talking about.
I ask/started this thread only because there IS one company which makes a VERY BIG deal over using de-ionized water over; tap/distilled/etc.
That company is No-Rosion www.no-rosion.com, and yes, it may be just to hype/sell/justify their own product offerings.
Look them up and let me know what you (and all of the other tribos/'techies') think. Bogus or valid points??
Originally Posted By: suspiciousmind
I don't know but, i do know that deionized wouldn't be good. It's hungry for metals and will cause rust and corrosion until it gets its fill.
Once it's mixed with antifreeze it's no longer deionized or hungry. It's now full of corrosion inhibitors.
I don't know but, i do know that deionized wouldn't be good. It's hungry for metals and will cause rust and corrosion until it gets its fill.
Once it's mixed with antifreeze it's no longer deionized or hungry. It's now full of corrosion inhibitors.
Originally Posted By: suspiciousmind
I don't know but, i do know that deionized wouldn't be good. It's hungry for metals and will cause rust and corrosion until it gets its fill.
That's just not true. Its one of those myths that just refuses to die.
Pure water doesn't know if its been purified by distillation, reverse osmosis, or chemical deionization/softening. Its. just. water. And once you mix it with antifreeze, the corrosion inhibitors in the antifreeze take over and prevent corrosion. They can even tolerate some impurities from tap water, but its better to get the water AS PURE as possible. Distilled or R.O. would be the purest, deionized a second choice, plain tap water "last resort."
I don't know but, i do know that deionized wouldn't be good. It's hungry for metals and will cause rust and corrosion until it gets its fill.
That's just not true. Its one of those myths that just refuses to die.
Pure water doesn't know if its been purified by distillation, reverse osmosis, or chemical deionization/softening. Its. just. water. And once you mix it with antifreeze, the corrosion inhibitors in the antifreeze take over and prevent corrosion. They can even tolerate some impurities from tap water, but its better to get the water AS PURE as possible. Distilled or R.O. would be the purest, deionized a second choice, plain tap water "last resort."
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: doitmyself
What is the point of this thread?
I think we have to trust that 50/50 mix uses water that is suitable for automotive applications. I am confident they don't use sea water to formulate the mix and they probably don't have to use ultra pure water either.
The idea that ultra pure water can rob molecules from materials that it touches seems plausible. BUT....in a closed system, the water would quickly reach equilibrium and "molecule robbing" would cease before any damage was done. If the system was open, meaning a constant flow of new water in one end and water leaving the other end, I suppose it could cause the metal/plastic to become thinner.
That is my opinion. It's a moot point for what we are talking about.
I ask/started this thread only because there IS one company which makes a VERY BIG deal over using de-ionized water over; tap/distilled/etc.
That company is No-Rosion www.no-rosion.com, and yes, it may be just to hype/sell/justify their own product offerings.
Look them up and let me know what you (and all of the other tribos/'techies') think. Bogus or valid points??
dailydriver, having studied the tech. page at No-Rosion, I would run, not walk, from buying their products. The ONLY application I might consider would be some vehicle (antique?/racing?)that only recommended water as an anti-freeze. There is so much marketing hype there, it would take a novel to expose it all.
And, your question indicates you DID NOT read their own stance about distilled water (not D.I.)use on their tech. page:
" Many people have heard that distilled water is best to use in a cooling system. This is wrong, unless a mix of 50/50 antifreeze is used........... The problem is that when water is distilled, or “stripped” of impurities, the resulting solution is composed of chemically imbalanced “ions.” This leaves distilled water “electrochemically hungry,” so it will actually strip electrons from the metals in a cooling system as it attempts to chemically re-balance itself. As it chemically removes electrons from the cooling system metals, it does damage that will eventually lead to leaks and system failure. Using distilled water in combination with 50% antifreeze is no problem, because the distilled water will seek, and find, electrochemical balance from the various chemical ingredients in the antifreeze mixture. But using distilled water as straight water coolant, either with or without No-Rosion, is strongly discouraged."
Their products seem to have been developed for some very special applications and they are trying to market them as needed by everyone. Lots of hogwash there.
I, too, encourage others to go to their site for some entertainment.
http://www.norosion.com/
Originally Posted By: doitmyself
What is the point of this thread?
I think we have to trust that 50/50 mix uses water that is suitable for automotive applications. I am confident they don't use sea water to formulate the mix and they probably don't have to use ultra pure water either.
The idea that ultra pure water can rob molecules from materials that it touches seems plausible. BUT....in a closed system, the water would quickly reach equilibrium and "molecule robbing" would cease before any damage was done. If the system was open, meaning a constant flow of new water in one end and water leaving the other end, I suppose it could cause the metal/plastic to become thinner.
That is my opinion. It's a moot point for what we are talking about.
I ask/started this thread only because there IS one company which makes a VERY BIG deal over using de-ionized water over; tap/distilled/etc.
That company is No-Rosion www.no-rosion.com, and yes, it may be just to hype/sell/justify their own product offerings.
Look them up and let me know what you (and all of the other tribos/'techies') think. Bogus or valid points??
dailydriver, having studied the tech. page at No-Rosion, I would run, not walk, from buying their products. The ONLY application I might consider would be some vehicle (antique?/racing?)that only recommended water as an anti-freeze. There is so much marketing hype there, it would take a novel to expose it all.
And, your question indicates you DID NOT read their own stance about distilled water (not D.I.)use on their tech. page:
" Many people have heard that distilled water is best to use in a cooling system. This is wrong, unless a mix of 50/50 antifreeze is used........... The problem is that when water is distilled, or “stripped” of impurities, the resulting solution is composed of chemically imbalanced “ions.” This leaves distilled water “electrochemically hungry,” so it will actually strip electrons from the metals in a cooling system as it attempts to chemically re-balance itself. As it chemically removes electrons from the cooling system metals, it does damage that will eventually lead to leaks and system failure. Using distilled water in combination with 50% antifreeze is no problem, because the distilled water will seek, and find, electrochemical balance from the various chemical ingredients in the antifreeze mixture. But using distilled water as straight water coolant, either with or without No-Rosion, is strongly discouraged."
Their products seem to have been developed for some very special applications and they are trying to market them as needed by everyone. Lots of hogwash there.
I, too, encourage others to go to their site for some entertainment.
http://www.norosion.com/
Originally Posted By: doitmyself
" Many people have heard that distilled water is best to use in a cooling system. This is wrong, unless a mix of 50/50 antifreeze is used........... The problem is that when water is distilled, or “stripped” of impurities, the resulting solution is composed of chemically imbalanced “ions.” This leaves distilled water “electrochemically hungry,” so it will actually strip electrons from the metals in a cooling system as it attempts to chemically re-balance itself. As it chemically removes electrons from the cooling system metals, it does damage that will eventually lead to leaks and system failure. Using distilled water in combination with 50% antifreeze is no problem, because the distilled water will seek, and find, electrochemical balance from the various chemical ingredients in the antifreeze mixture. But using distilled water as straight water coolant, either with or without No-Rosion, is strongly discouraged."
Wallace Shawn had a one-word line in 'The Princess Bride' that is appropriate here:
"MORONS!!!"
I love the part where it says, "when water is distilled, or “stripped” of impurities, the resulting solution is composed of chemically imbalanced “ions.”"
Uh, Nooo.... When water is distilled, the resulting solution is NOT EVEN A SOLUTION! Its just water, with NO ions at all in it! Distilled water is not even electrically conductive BECAUSE it has no ions!! Jeez, they're selling a chemical and couldn't even pass high school chemistry!
Originally Posted By: doitmyself
I, too, encourage others to go to their site for some entertainment.
http://www.norosion.com/
I'm not sure I could stand it...
" Many people have heard that distilled water is best to use in a cooling system. This is wrong, unless a mix of 50/50 antifreeze is used........... The problem is that when water is distilled, or “stripped” of impurities, the resulting solution is composed of chemically imbalanced “ions.” This leaves distilled water “electrochemically hungry,” so it will actually strip electrons from the metals in a cooling system as it attempts to chemically re-balance itself. As it chemically removes electrons from the cooling system metals, it does damage that will eventually lead to leaks and system failure. Using distilled water in combination with 50% antifreeze is no problem, because the distilled water will seek, and find, electrochemical balance from the various chemical ingredients in the antifreeze mixture. But using distilled water as straight water coolant, either with or without No-Rosion, is strongly discouraged."
Wallace Shawn had a one-word line in 'The Princess Bride' that is appropriate here:
"MORONS!!!"
I love the part where it says, "when water is distilled, or “stripped” of impurities, the resulting solution is composed of chemically imbalanced “ions.”"
Uh, Nooo.... When water is distilled, the resulting solution is NOT EVEN A SOLUTION! Its just water, with NO ions at all in it! Distilled water is not even electrically conductive BECAUSE it has no ions!! Jeez, they're selling a chemical and couldn't even pass high school chemistry!
Originally Posted By: doitmyself
I, too, encourage others to go to their site for some entertainment.
http://www.norosion.com/
I'm not sure I could stand it...
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After reading all of those posts, I guess I ain't doing THAT bad: I use filtered water (i.e. straight out of a regular water filter, over at my mother's home). Since I live in a condo', I don't have the facilities for oil changes, tune-ups, etc., so my mother allows me to use her driveway/garage for those minor DIY jobs. I do my own 50-50 mix with Prestone (green, orange, etc., I really don't care 'bout anti-freeze/coolant colors). SO FAR, no negative results for the last 30+ years, thank God!
Greetings from sweltering Puerto Rico, amigos!
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Flawless '04 350Z Touring Coupe. Only "mod": K&N drop in!
Greetings from sweltering Puerto Rico, amigos!
______________________________________________________
Flawless '04 350Z Touring Coupe. Only "mod": K&N drop in!
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