Value of a college degree

[Drew99GT]

Totally agree JHZR2. One thing I'd like to say about the trades, particularly carpentry, and slowly but surely more technical trades: they're starting to pay beans as the folks from south of the border are taking over those jobs and work for half what us gringos will do the work for.

In my area, plumbing, construction, electrical work, is all now mainly done for half the wages because us Americans no longer like doing that type of work.

It's bull manure.

I see it all day long with my job.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: CivicFan
Are you talking about science degrees?


Science, math and engineering can generally be lumped together. Granted some science areas (bio as cited for example) get dumbed down versions of chemistry, math and physics, but that is a means of selling degrees.

As a chemical engineer, we had to take the higher level (more integrated calculus was generally the difference) chemistry and math classes. The chemists could opt out of the tougher variants of chemistry classes, or take them if they so decided. Biologists could take the dumbed down versions of everything. Biochemists generally took the tougher variants.

Not to knock bio, but it is a prime example of a dumbed down degree to sell slips of paper, even though it is a science degree... And Im sure some biologists understand extremely complex chemistry... but not your typical graduate.

 

[TooManyWheels]

Originally Posted By: Johnny
My wife has a masters in secondary education and I have a two year associates degree in business. She taught for 37-years, I worked for Pennzoil/Shell for 21 years.


That is because people like the ones quoted above think all the worthwhile part of learning is done by the learner, and then only in math and science...

Was it Ben Franklin who said "Some people don't know what they don't know, and that is a whole new level of ignorance"?

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Totally agree JHZR2. One thing I'd like to say about the trades, particularly carpentry, and slowly but surely more technical trades: they're starting to pay beans as the folks from south of the border are taking over those jobs and work for half what us gringos will do the work for.


Im sure some will call me racist, but anyway, I will not knowingly hire Mexicans to do jobs. When I call someone to do work on my home, I actually do ask if everyone will be an American citizen. I know it will cost more, but at least I know that I am paying someone here a wage that goes back into our system. I try my best to get the best person for the job. I do not want illegal labor on the job just as a means of saving a few bucks. I also boycott stores where I have a perception that illegal labor is being used. Doesnt always work Im sure, but I try my best.

And Im sure there are some great Mexican laborers up here. But if they are really good, they likely are also able to speak my language, discuss the job completely and gain my trust... And also likely get a green card or citizenship. I havent run into one yet though...

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: TooManyWheels
Originally Posted By: Johnny
My wife has a masters in secondary education and I have a two year associates degree in business. She taught for 37-years, I worked for Pennzoil/Shell for 21 years.


That is because people like the ones quoted above think all the worthwhile part of learning is done by the learner, and then only in math and science...

Was it Ben Franklin who said "Some people don't know what they don't know, and that is a whole new level of ignorance"?


No, Johnny's post reiterated my point (and the article's). His two-year associate's degree paid far more than the significantly more expensive secondary eduation degree. So going back to ROI, which had the better ROI, Johnny, who didnt actually even have a Bachelor's degree or his wife? Just proves the point that many full-up college degrees are NOT worth it in the big picture. There is a lot more to it than just having a slip of paper, and we are doing ourselves a disservice selling all sorts of degrees that dont get anyone anywhere.

Now that said, like was mentioned previously, one needs to follow their head and heart, and do what they enjoy. Johnny's wife may well do this and absolutely love and get a lot out of it... But it still does not mean that the ROI is very good.

Math and science are merely a prime example of a set of knowledge that one cannot really reasonably get without significant formal training. The average self-taught person is not going to derive all the basis tenets of calculus, physics, chemistry, etc. in their basement or back yard. But these things are the bedrock upon which any sort of other progress is made.

 

[wallyuwl]

I'm doing my PhD because to do what I want (college professor) you need to have one.

I'd say that college degrees are more important than ever. With the number of manufacturing jobs going overseas because of cheaper labor and anti-manufacturing policies out of Washington DC, the days of being able to get a $40k/yr or more manufacturing job are gone. And even many of those require a technical college degree.

I will say that some majors are worthless. Nearly all of the humanities ones are. The sciences, health sciences, and engineering ones are not. Well, just having an undergrad in biology is pretty worthless. But having just an undergrad in physics or chemistry is not. If you get a math or stats degree (even just undergrad) you can write your own ticket to a great job.

It is all about what field your degree is in for most people, especially if it is not a graduate degree.

 

[JHZR2]

couldnt agree more, wally. What field is your PhD in? Where are you at in the process?

Good luck!

 

[aquariuscsm]

A college degree is basically worthless unless you learn a specific trade.

 

[TooManyWheels]

And who is going to solve the social problems caused by engineers run amok, like, for instance, in an oil company that thinks the great religion of ROI is all that counts?

 

[brianl703]

An engineer can tell you how to accomplish something. It's up to someone else to determine if it's worth it.

 

[JHZR2]

The ROI analysis from a certain oil company was put together and demanded by the engineers, eh?

Unfortunately I am sure you are mistaken. It is the business folks on the upper floors of high-rise buildings who dont understand one bit how the practical physical world works... So it is easy to make decisions based upon ROI, even if the technical basis isnt there.

Then the MBA folks get to mix just enough technical jargon with the basic intent to get it all approved and secure their bonus.

Sure is a great system, isnt it? I think you might want to recalibrate your "social observer" status to be a bit more accurate.

 

[brianl703]

Originally Posted By: Drew99GT

In my area, plumbing, construction, electrical work, is all now mainly done for half the wages because us Americans no longer like doing that type of work.


Half the wages and half the quality. Sorry, but I know the difference between a house built 30 years ago and one built 15 years ago, and the difference is night and day in terms of how well they're built.

Then again, it is hard to ensure a quality product when you do your recruiting in a 7-11 parking lot.

 

[XS650]

Originally Posted By: brianl703
An engineer can tell you how to accomplish something. It's up to someone else to determine if it's worth it.


+1
It would be a sad sad world if the only higher education was science and engineering. And I am an engineer.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: brianl703
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT

In my area, plumbing, construction, electrical work, is all now mainly done for half the wages because us Americans no longer like doing that type of work.


Half the wages and half the quality. Sorry, but I know the difference between a house built 30 years ago and one built 15 years ago, and the difference is night and day in terms of how well they're built.

Then again, it is hard to ensure a quality product when you do your recruiting in a 7-11 parking lot.


+100000

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: XS650
It would be a sad sad world if the only higher education was science and engineering. And I am an engineer.

Agreed. Humanities, etc. all definitely have their place. The problem is that most all of those types of education do not set you up to really understand the practical and physical world - which is far more profitable, whether through a science/math/engineering based profession, or a trade. You can go a lot farther by having an extremely strong background in that stuff, then to glaze over it, buy a degree, and then go work at radio shack selling cellphones, or being a witress.

Even if science/engineering isnt your final destination, having a far stronger background in that "tough" stuff sets you up better for whatever you are going to do.

 

[wallyuwl]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
couldnt agree more, wally. What field is your PhD in? Where are you at in the process?

Good luck!


It is in biomechanics, a subset of kinesiology (sometimes termed exercise science). It is basically physics for the body. It crosses over some with athletic training, physical therapy, and biomedical engineering, among other things.

I'll soon be starting my 4th year, but it will probably take me 5. I'm in the middle of comprehensive exams right now. My exams are a little different than normal, a lot of papers and not just sitting down at a computer answering questions. It is over a 6 month process and I have about two or three more months left.

Then the dissertation. Going to do some stuff with making rats lift weights.

 

[JHZR2]

Neat stuff. My wife is a DPT, and what youre doing is neat stuff from what she goes through with me.

Good luck with your comps. Im recently past them and into really doing research. It is a tough time... Trust me, there is light at the end of the tunnel!

 

[wallyuwl]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: SuperDave456


Unfortunately the world has not changed for the better. 4 year degrees are now a mandatory 5 years, and since everyone now has a College Degree it is worthless.
In order to succeed you need a Masters degree, at least another 2 years of investment after that initial BA or [censored].

I think the college system in the USA has gone to POT for profit, and the only thing it promotes is the creation of more Professors who do nothing.
What we are lacking are thinkers, creators, and (dare I say it) artists. People who don't regurgitate information that they have devoured in pursuit of profit, but people who create their own ideas and bust their tail to make them work.



Couldnt agree more.

And what makes it sadder to see is when in advanced topical areas within science and engineering, we cannot get our own citizens to fill the rosters. HUGE numbers of Chinese and Indians get educated.


Not to get too testy, but you guys are dead wrong. You can graduate in four years if you apply yourself. I graduated in 3.5 with my undergrad. The costs are rising because states are cutting funding for higher education because it is easy for them to do so. It is a harder political decision to cut prescription drug programs for old people or the prison budget. The university I attend has had a reduction in state funding of about $20 million EACH of the last three years. Even with tuition increases, they are operating at 2005 budget levels (including all forms of income).

To say all the university/college system does is make more worthless, non-working professors is pure ignorance. Are there some basically worthless professors? Sure. There are some worthless professionals in every profession. But the vast majority work very hard. The average work week for a college professor is 54 hours. Many also work during the summer for 35-40 hours per week even though they are not technically getting paid for that work.

As for Chinese and Indian students making up most of our engineering and science students, that is also incorrect. It has been my experience that more Americans than foreign students make up these majors, even at the Graduate level. And not all of the foreign students are Chinese and Indian. Many are Japanese, or from the middle east. And to say or imply they are automatically smarter is ignorance again. I've encountered a lot of pretty dumb Chinese and Indian students, as well as some brilliant ones. This is no different than with American students.

 

[wallyuwl]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Neat stuff. My wife is a DPT, and what youre doing is neat stuff from what she goes through with me.

Good luck with your comps. Im recently past them and into really doing research. It is a tough time... Trust me, there is light at the end of the tunnel!


Hehe, usually it is the biomechanics stuff that the PTs hate more in their curriculum. For my Masters I was a TA for both biomechanics classes the DPTs had to take.

Ahhh... comps. Some day they'll be over. Gotta go prep a bit for teaching now, though. I just made their test for tomorrow.

What area are you in? Where you studying?

 

[Cutehumor]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2


Anything art, finance, even most business is marginally worthless, because it really only makes you capable of being a line manager at the wal-mart or cell phone store.


+1