Use Harley Oil or Amsoil ?

[DuckRyder]

Originally Posted By: BigCahuna
"If what is being said is true EVEN if said part is EPA certified, it still must be HD approved". I believe you have that backwards. ...


You should go read that thread.

Also the 2018 warranty.

 

[alarmguy]

Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
And it seems I was both right and wrong.

There is a rather long thread on HD forums “The warranty issue is real.”.

To summarize (if what is being said in the thread is true) HD is now voiding the entire powertrain warranty on any 17 up model bike with any non-HD certified EPA controlled part. (for instance slip-ons).

If what is being said is true EVEN if said part is EPA certified, it still must be HD approved. Clearly their lawyers have studied the consent decree and decided that they can get away with this. - It seems a clear cut violation of M-M to me, and not contained in the consent decree either.

It is also being said that the dealer is required to produce a picture of the bike and exhaust if requested, so they are taking it out of the dealers hands.

It likely won’t be long before they figure out if they can get away with declining warranty for NON-HD maintenance parts. EPA has taught them that M-M is meaningless and it seems they will use that to their advantage.

So I retract my advice about what the dealer is selling.

If your warranty on a 17 up bike is important to you, ride it stock (or Screamin’ Eagle) and use the “recommended” parts.



Originally Posted By: alarmguy
Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
Originally Posted By: alarmguy
...

You mention that you can look on the shelves of the dealership for Amsoil, Belray or any V TWIN labeled oil and then use one of them and maybe have an "out" with any warranty issue. That would not be true, a dealer is not Harley Davidson and a dealer does not make warranty decisions.

....


Point of clarification:

The dealer is the first link in the warranty chain, IME (other than HD admittedly) if the dealer doesn’t make an issue of it, the manufacturer probably will not. So the dealer is less likely to make an issue of it if they sell it.

If HD does make an issue of it they will probably do so by asking for maintenance records, if you can’t produce them you will have a problem at that point.

We have all been down this road before so we know there isn’t agreement on it.





Yup, its hard to agree on Speculation when it goes against fact.
use HD 360 oil only and CH4 or better Diesel oil in an emergency is the only fact.

The rest is speculation, sometimes on things that never happen and impossible to all agree on it.


Since it says:

Quote:
At the first opportunity, see an authorized dealer to change back to 100 percent Harley-Davidson oil.


That’s an out for them. Unless you believe that the “first opportunity” is never.

If you are using the listed oils routinely you’re just as off label as anything else.

Two years ago I would have said that the chances of them making an issue of it were just about zero, post EPA consent decree id say the chances of them making an issue of it are much better.


I do agree using diesel oil "routinely" is off label but I do not agree as off label as using a VTWIN oil simply because the way I see it, typical VTWIN oils do not come close to the formulation of Diesel oil, which in my mind HD oil is simply diesel oil .. matching closely with some VOAs and UOAs in BITOG. (yes, I know, speculation )

Simply because diesel oil is mentioned as in an emergency and in that case leaves you a little wiggle room, if you were using it in an emergency who is to say for how long and if it was used routinely, etc.

Anyway, I doubt a claim would be denied (but yes, more speculation) but still think way better then standard vtwin oil because at least there is something to lean on when pleading a case...never mind if you were using it exclusively.

AS I see you are in the forums a bit and most everyone in HD Forums, 100,000 s of thousands of Harleys out there and I doubt many, if any are being denied warranty based on oil choice or we would certainly know about it because we know of every single issue with these bikes in the forums.

So that leads me too what works for me and why I go with the 15w50 Mystik Diesel.
It wasnt an easy decision years ago but feel I am using an oil more in "spec" with Harleys thinking, as it is a diesel oil, yes, I maybe out of compliance like everyone else using a vtwin oil but I guess we choose what we do, I think I would have a good case if my engine blew up but I am already now past the HD warranty and it didnt blow up as almost no engines do while under warranty, now I feel I am using an oil best for the engine for many more trouble free miles, hopefully!

Ps. Yes, I have read part of that thread about after market stuff, but have not followed it, its possible HD has to maybe lay the hammer down on after market parts? EPA coming down on them over past tuners etc ... ? I havent followed it as much, one thing for sure, because of the brand and soooo many bikes on the road, some of these issues are magnified over other brands.

 

[alarmguy]

Oh cr*p ... let me warn anyone reading this thread, you will be seeing a UOA in a couple months with a non diesel oil. Figured I would mention that right now so you dont break my chops after all this stuff about C rated oils.

Im only doing 1 run with this oil, even though I purchased 2 runs worth, think I am just going to go back to the Mystik. Ill decide when I change the oil and take the sample.
As I posted in the last UOA right here in the forums, I was doing an experiment using an automotive oil tested by RAT with a higher film strength and curious to see if the wear number would be any different vs lower film strength diesel oils. But I have decided even if the wear number is lower it wont be significant and would still go back because manufacturers recommend oils based on more then just wear numbers and certainly on more then a UOA.

Figured I would mention it now so I dont get flamed in 2 months when I post the UOA...!

 

[DuckRyder]

You’ll get no flames from me, you know I’m running M1 and not HD oil, though I did let the dealer do the 1000 mile service with SYN3 as there had been reports of them refusing to fix things like spoked wheels that you could not prove were checked during the 1000 service.

It is well out of warranty now, but aside from fluids doesn’t have any aftermarket parts... I find the HD stuff to be good and fit properly, it is even Stage 1’ed with Screaming’ Eagle stuff and runs quite well even with that “Horrible” HD Tuner. (save the hate mail, it is all legal and not loud)

All I am getting at here is that times are changing and it seems to me that HD is testing the waters to see how far they can go... I’ve already heard of GM asking for the ECM data to be sent to them for warranty claims on Duramax as they can tell if it has EVER ben flashed, now reports of HD doing the same.

OOPS, guess I better take that back, it does have a lowering kit - which is one of the things they specifically list in the 2018 warranty as “may” void your warranty IIRC. Forgot about that for a minute....

 

[BigCahuna]

Your current bike, as well as any future bikes you may purchase, will have their warranty voided because of that lowering kit. You really did it this time.,,,

 

[alarmguy]

Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
You’ll get no flames from me, you know I’m running M1 and not HD oil, though I did let the dealer do the 1000 mile service with SYN3 as there had been reports of them refusing to fix things like spoked wheels that you could not prove were checked during the 1000 service.

It is well out of warranty now, but aside from fluids doesn’t have any aftermarket parts... I find the HD stuff to be good and fit properly, it is even Stage 1’ed with Screaming’ Eagle stuff and runs quite well even with that “Horrible” HD Tuner. (save the hate mail, it is all legal and not loud)

All I am getting at here is that times are changing and it seems to me that HD is testing the waters to see how far they can go... I’ve already heard of GM asking for the ECM data to be sent to them for warranty claims on Duramax as they can tell if it has EVER ben flashed, now reports of HD doing the same.

OOPS, guess I better take that back, it does have a lowering kit - which is one of the things they specifically list in the 2018 warranty as “may” void your warranty IIRC. Forgot about that for a minute....


Im not sure if I am reading this correctly, When say you do not have "aftermarket" stuff, you mean, you did Stage 1 but used all HD parts, correct? Including the HD tuner?
If so, I am curious exactly what mods.

My RK is engine is bone stock except I removed the CAT. Ooops! I did also swap out the 6 row oil cooler and put in a 10 Row Jagg, I did not use the Jagg adapater, I kept the HD on. So more or less, I disconnected the oil cooler hoses and put on the Jagg using their hose.

Everytime Im on the bike I cant help feel how awesome it runs, however, my mind was never closed to proper upgrades and think the HD way could be good for the following reason.

Of the small amount of mods I did to the bike I have found the price of Harley equipment on par and lower then much after market equipment, not only that but the usual nice quality feel of the stuff and its connectors. Im not being an HD fanboy, I am just stating facts in regard to my experiences. (and not afraid to say so)

I replaced the HD OEM Tail light with the HD LED Tail light, the price was the same and much lower then the name brand aftermarket companies and the HD quality was right up there, plug and play of course and one thing the other companies are not, the HD tail light or course is DOT approved.

Since then, I also installed the HD Saddle Bag Electroglow lights, same deal, well put together connectors, instructions and kit, plug and play, nice quality, priced around the same as the after market companies and the HD lights are DOT approved and wow, bright. Surprised how bright for DOT.

Recently just added foot pegs on the engine bar, HD, nice heavy duty feel.

Only thing not HD on the bike are my handle bar grips. Past Metric bikes I had Kury grips, took a liking to them, and as much as I wanted HD, I just didnt see nice beefy ones like the Kurys that I got used to. SO got the same type flame Kurys. Big, beefy comfy.

geez, feel bad, hijcked this thread a bit, well at least he has a HD and maybe interested.

As all things are more and more computer controlled and dependent on all systems of a device working together as a unit, I can see companies turning down warranties if they feel the modification maybe have caused an issue.
Also, companies are not the friends of the consumer, their due diligence is to the stockholders of the company for the bes tprofits possible, its also some companies will use an excuse, and then the gray area.
But, again, some many after market companies now, add to that from China too, it can be tempting for the producer of a product to draw a line and say no more as, for them to keep track of all these add ones ...

One last thing, forums do effect me, for the first time in my life I bought an extended warranty because of all the Harley stories.
Cost me $1,100 for four years and no deductible with Cornerstone. Still have 3 years left, bike has never needed a repair but Im sure I will need something in the next 3 years to justify it, we will see or if I sell it privately it will be worth it as well, nice selling point.

 

[alarmguy]

excuse the typos, geez, hate that the time to edit "times out" in BITOG

 

[BigCahuna]

Buying a extended warrenty is no certainty your warranty claim won't be denied. This guy had his clutch repair denied, for flying flags according to Harley. I can't believe they would deny a claim like that if you were were overweight. Or your wife was. I don't see how a overweight person would cause a clutch to fail. But flying a flag does?.,,,, http://fox6now.com/2014/05/26/harley-dav...-miles-but-why/

 

[DuckRyder]

Originally Posted By: alarmguy
...
Im not sure if I am reading this correctly, When say you do not have "aftermarket" stuff, you mean, you did Stage 1 but used all HD parts, correct? Including the HD tuner?
If so, I am curious exactly what mods.

...


Yes, it has a Ventilator Air Cleaner, Street Cannon Slip Ons and a Stage 1 Tune from the Pro Street Tuner (not to be confused with the Race Tuner).

The bike has always run well and continues to do so while street tuned. It isn’t loud but has a slightly deeper tone. It is all 50 state legal.

It also has a number of other HD parts and accessories and everything has fit exactly right and has been competitively priced with aftermarket stuff of similar quality.

That thread on warranty issue is an interesting read, and yes there are some folks on it who have been denied warranty, though none for maintenance items. They are however clearly taking the EPA consent decree and the written terms of the HD limited warranty much more seriously.

If I bought an 18 model, I would not do anything whatsoever to give them an out on the 2 year warranty. I’d probably have the dealer stage one it with SE parts before delivery so as to get those parts covered under the 2 year warranty as well. I might even buy an ESP and get the stage one covered under it as well.

Considering some of the M8 scavenge pump issues, I’d probably even use HD oil, and again I’d let them do the 1000 mile service.

Back to the oil... I think the two biggest issues here is that there is no other oil that meets the HD360 rating. AFAIK not even where the oil manufacturer says “meets or exceeds” and the manual doesn’t say use an SAE XX oil (other than temporary) and I feel like that is probably intentional. It is a loophole. It could work both ways, but it could be a mess. With the M8 scavenge pump issues, I’d prefer not to give them any way to make a mess. They have not said you must use HD oil to maintain the warranty (that would be a violation of M-M prohibition on tie in sales “requires the consumer’s purchase of an article or service identified by brand, trade or corporate name”) but they have given you a rating that nothing meets except HD oil which they are technically allowed to do.

They are tightening the warranty purse strings, so we haven’t heard about them denying warranty for oil yet, but they are getting much stringent in conforming to the written terms, it just takes one warranty rep going too far and then you have the choice of either paying for your repair or being a test case.

Will it ever happen? Maybe it will or maybe it won’t.

 

[dwendt44]

How would they even know you used a non H-D oil unless
you tell them? It would take expensive lab testing of oil
samples to prove it wasn't their oil.

Of course, they may ask for proof of oil changes with
receipts etc.

 

[DuckRyder]

Originally Posted By: dwendt44
How would they even know you used a non H-D oil unless
you tell them? It would take expensive lab testing of oil
samples to prove it wasn’t their oil.


Well some things might be obvious, redline shock proof in the trans is bright red, isn’t royal purple purple?

Dealer oils with things like UV markers are not unheard of... so if they really wanted to make an issue of it the MoCo could do something like that.

Originally Posted By: dwendt44
Of course, they may ask for proof of oil changes with
receipts etc.



That is my guess for how it would go, if the dealer did not have records.

To be clear, we are pretty far out in speculation land here and I would be surprised if it became an issue normally. It is however within the realm of possibility, particularly as it seems from the mentioned thread that at least some of powertrain failures are being inspected by a field rep and instantly denied for non-EPA approved modifications whether or not they contributed to the failure. I would not like to be they guy with a failed transmission when the rep pulls the dipstick and it is bright red, or there is purple stuff running out of the oil pan when the oil is drained In my failed M8.

 

[alarmguy]

Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
Originally Posted By: alarmguy
...
Im not sure if I am reading this correctly, When say you do not have "aftermarket" stuff, you mean, you did Stage 1 but used all HD parts, correct? Including the HD tuner?
If so, I am curious exactly what mods.

...


Yes, it has a Ventilator Air Cleaner, Street Cannon Slip Ons and a Stage 1 Tune from the Pro Street Tuner (not to be confused with the Race Tuner).

The bike has always run well and continues to do so while street tuned. It isn’t loud but has a slightly deeper tone. It is all 50 state legal.

It also has a number of other HD parts and accessories and everything has fit exactly right and has been competitively priced with aftermarket stuff of similar quality.

That thread on warranty issue is an interesting read, and yes there are some folks on it who have been denied warranty, though none for maintenance items...

Back to the oil... I think the two biggest issues here is that there is no other oil that meets the HD360 rating. AFAIK not even where the oil manufacturer says “meets or exceeds” and the manual doesn’t say use an SAE XX oil (other than temporary) and I feel like that is probably intentional. It is a loophole. It could work both ways, but it could be a mess. With the M8 scavenge pump issues, I’d prefer not to give them any way to make a mess. They have not said you must use HD oil to maintain the warranty (that would be a violation of M-M prohibition on tie in sales “requires the consumer’s purchase of an article or service identified by brand, trade or corporate name”) but they have given you a rating that nothing meets except HD oil which they are technically allowed to do.

They are tightening the warranty purse strings, so we haven’t heard about them denying warranty for oil yet, but they are getting much stringent in conforming to the written terms, it just takes one warranty rep going too far and then you have the choice of either paying for your repair or being a test case.

Will it ever happen? Maybe it will or maybe it won’t.


Good post,

It sounds like you carried out a reasonable, well thought out plan with the mods and Im sure long term reliability will be right up there based on the equipment that you purchased.
As I stated, my feelings are the same regarding choice of equipment.

Looking forward to reading the thread on warranties now, when I have time, I think its grown quite long by now.

 

[BigCahuna]

Are you guys serious? You buy a Harley, pay for it with your money, and are so scared about them "denying a warranty claim" because you don't use everything the dealer sells on your bike?. From their oil to their bolt on parts?. There's not one item Harley sells that you can't get from a aftermarket supplier that will work better, last longer, and cost less. You really owe it to yourself to go other places then the dealership catalog when you go shopping for bike parts. Did you buy your bike to make you happy, or to make Harley happy?.,,,

 

[gman2304]

Originally Posted By: BigCahuna
Are you guys serious? You buy a Harley, pay for it with your money, and are so scared about them "denying a warranty claim" because you don't use everything the dealer sells on your bike?. From their oil to their bolt on parts?. There's not one item Harley sells that you can't get from a aftermarket supplier that will work better, last longer, and cost less. You really owe it to yourself to go other places then the dealership catalog when you go shopping for bike parts. Did you buy your bike to make you happy, or to make Harley happy?.,,,
. There’ s so much wrong going on in this post....I won’ t even comment!

 

[alarmguy]

Originally Posted By: gman2304
Originally Posted By: BigCahuna
Are you guys serious? You buy a Harley, pay for it with your money, and are so scared about them "denying a warranty claim" because you don't use everything the dealer sells on your bike?. From their oil to their bolt on parts?. There's not one item Harley sells that you can't get from a aftermarket supplier that will work better, last longer, and cost less. You really owe it to yourself to go other places then the dealership catalog when you go shopping for bike parts. Did you buy your bike to make you happy, or to make Harley happy?.,,,
. There’ s so much wrong going on in this post....I won’ t even comment!


Yeah me either ... ha, well maybe one comment.
Cahuna, this is just a discussion about warranties and what is new with them. No one has a 2017 bike in this thread.
Its a discussion, just a discussion.
You would need to read up on it, as I have started too after DuckRiders post in the HD forums, I have seen the thread before, its like 97 posts and was so long I didnt start reading it until yesterday, Im up to post 60 or so, long regarding warranties on 2017 and newer bikes.
It is REAL and it is and will be forever a reality and it IS the EPA coming down on Harley not Harley coming down on the customer.
Ok, this is all I will post on the subject.
One more thing, dont think in the future if you flash the ECMs on that 30 to 40,000 truck or car that you buy, the same thing wont happen as far as a warranty issue. Its a new and changing world, unless Trump slashes the EPA and even then, in this new world of designing products within specific engineering tolerances I think its safe to assume it will not be just the EPA but you will be open to being denied by manufacturers from all motor vechicles.
(i swear Im not posting on this subject in here any further) )

 

[alarmguy]

It will be an interesting warranty thing to read up on as bikes get more mileage on them and warranties expire.
I say that as the extended warranties kick in, they are no longer controlled by Harley.
Even Harley "branded" extended warranty (called service plan I think for that reason) is an after market company. I just dont know how their relationship work when getting the ok to perform work.

My extended warranty company, Cornerstone, I know, is not going to examine my bike to see if any mods were made, doubt they would even know where to look and with my warranty, I am free to take my bike to any licensed repair shop, it doesnt have to be a Harley dealer. (again, for the others, doesnt pertain to me or others in here, we are talking 2017 bikes and newer) Yet my statement I think would be true if even this was applied to my 2014 bike and aftermarket warranty company. Heck, it might be worth it to someone with a 2017 bike to look into this, are they better with Harley branded extended or after market branded extended?

 

[alarmguy]

deleted ... still waking up

 

[alarmguy]

Ok, one more thing to clarify my last post. (and understand, this is my personal impression from the little ready I did)

1. EPA coming down on Harley, its part of a decree.
2. Harley has to come down on its dealers and customer under certain warranty repairs and deny them.
If a dealer installed an unapproved device, the dealer will have to deal with the customer and pay for the repairs as Harley will not but you can bet that will be hit or miss for the customers with some dealers.
3. Bottom line, MY take on this is Harley dealers are forbidden to install aftermarket tuners etc if not approved by the EPA to run on Harleys. IF THEY DO HARLEY DAVIDSON HAS TO DENY any warranty work to these bikes as mandated by the EPA.
4. This is my rough impression of this subject based on the 97 post or longer thread in HD Forums.

and lets face facts, ALL after market tuners clearly state "for off road use only" well guess what?
Your over reaching EPA is putting down the hammer on that.
But with that said, lets face it, new technology has made ALL motor vehicles more reliable then ever, they are also designed within exacting specifications and tolerances and I would expect the maker of these companies will deny warranty coverage if those specs are changed and the device or part was not made for those changes, meaning the part was stressed beyond its design because of your modifications.

Hopefully these posted helped the OP!

 

[MoreCowbellAz]

I was fairly hot to trot to get a new Harley and this is all the stuff that turned me away, between the known teething pains not to mention the mystery "still sorting out" issues, having to increasingly worry about HD will do with your warranty, etc..........no thanks. I love doing the preventative/routine maintenance on my older RK, just last week did tensioner pads inspections, new breather valves in the heads, gaskets, oil change, etc, but even more I like knowing the bike is sorted, rock solid reliable, and no big brother to worry about. Not to mention paid off.

Basically I just had major problems throwing down the cash while having to worry about Harley having my back. And I was gonna go large with an Ultra CVO.

Anyway, just to keep this an oil thread, I've been using Mobil 1 15w50 in the motor with good non-scientific results, always surprised that I have yet to see a spec of anything on the drain plug.

 

[Ausfahrt]

Originally Posted By: MoreCowbellAz
I love doing the preventative/routine maintenance on my older RK, just last week did tensioner pads inspections, new breather valves in the heads, gaskets, oil change, etc, but even more I like knowing the bike is sorted, rock solid reliable, and no big brother to worry about. Not to mention paid off.

Anyway, just to keep this an oil thread, I've been using Mobil 1 15w50 in the motor with good non-scientific results, always surprised that I have yet to see a spec of anything on the drain plug.


+1

My evo Ultra is paid for, fun to ride and easy to work on. She's a keeper. I just wish that I could figure out the electrical gremlins that haunt her.

I have elected to use conventional oil in my Harley but I am a big fan of M1 15w-50 in a wide range of applications including OPE.