Use Harley Oil or Amsoil ?

Status
Not open for further replies.
I think some in here are in the dark ( me too and rightfully so) as to what your owners manual states, word for word on oil requirements.

If its anything like the touring bikes, you have some leeway on oil choice, not much but some.
and yes, one of those choices are a HDEO Diesel oil in 20/50 made by Amsoil.

There are others too but would be a great help if you state exactly what your manual says and not what the dealer says.
I would not get so hung up on what the dealer says, but for me, its more what the manual says, Harleys arent cheap and for me, want to take proper care of it.

Harley oil isnt bad at all, in fact I would prefer the conventional HD 360 oil, but of course any oil sold by any dealer will have dealer mark ups, that goes for any company.
 
My manual says to use Harley oil. I tried it years ago and found it to be 1- expensive for what it is, 2- my bike seemed to eat it. I have tried amsoil and didn't notice any difference in performance but my motor was noisier, and that stuff is more expensive then Harley oil. I change my oil between 4-5k miles, so I'm not looking for a oil that lasts 10k miles or longer. That means nothing to me. I just performed a cam chest service on my bike at 66k miles, after using Valvoline 20/50 wt mc oil for years. The inside of the chest looked almost like new. No gunk or sludge. Bearings and chains showed little to no wear, but the bearings and shoes were replaced with the updated ones. Since no oil makes a claim to prevent wear on Plastic parts that wear against steel parts, I see no reason to change what I'm doing or using. My bike gets used thruout the year. Winter rides every Sunday from October - April. I might substitute 2 qts 10/40 Valvoline mc oil for 20/50 if the Auto parts store has it while I'm there. I 've read about, and heard guys saying they had to replace the cam shoes alot sooner then I did. So I'm not buying into the Harley or amsoil is the best oil to use in your Harley. Alot of hype, for alot of money, for no beneficial results.,,
 
Way back when I owned Harley-Ds, the owners manual specifically stated I could use diesel engine oil if their branded oil was not available, but to change it as soon as practical back to HD oil.

Unfortunately now, you must have a VIN to seek the owner's manual. So I cannot tell you what it states now.
 
From my owners manual, 2009 TC 96 ci. ( If it is necessary to add oil and Harley Davidson oil is not available, use an oil certified for Diesel engines. Acceptable Diesel engine oil designations include: CF4, CG-4, CH4, and CI-4. The preferred viscosities for the Diesel engine oils in descending order are: 20w50, 15w40 and 10w40.) At first opportunity, see an authorized dealer to change back to 100% Harley-Davidson oil. The first sentence implies that even “topping off” the oil you have contaminated the genuine Harley oil and you should get to a Harley dealer ASAP to get that stuff out of the crankcase!
 
The 2018 Softail Owners Manual says:

Quote:

CAUTION
Prolonged or repeated contact with used motor oil may be harmful to skin and could cause skin cancer. Promptly wash affected areas with soap and water. (00358b)

CAUTION
If engine oil is swallowed, do not induce vomiting. Contact a physician immediately. In case of contact with eyes, immediately flush with water. Contact a physician if irritation persists. (00357d)

NOTICE
Do not switch lubricant brands indiscriminately because some lubricants interact chemically when mixed. Use of inferior lubricants can damage the engine. (00184a)

Engine oil is a major factor in the performance and service life of the engine. Use the proper grade of oil for the lowest temperature expected before the next oil change. Refer to Table 1.
All except FLFBS, FLHCS, FXBRS and FXFBS: These models were originally filled with GENUINE HARLEY-DAVIDSON H-D 360 MOTORCYCLE OIL 20W50.

FLFBS, FLHCS, FXBRS and FXFBS: These models came filled with SCREAMIN’ EAGLE SYN3 FULL SYNTHETIC MOTORCYCLE LUBRICANT.

These oils are the preferred oil under normal operating conditions. If operation under extreme cold or heat are expected, refer to Table 1 for alternative choices.
If SYN3 or H-D 360 is not available, add oil certified for diesel engines. Acceptable designations include: CH-4, CI-4 and CJ-4. The preferred viscosities, in descending order are: 20W50, 15W40 and 10W40.

At the first opportunity, see an authorized dealer to change back to 100 percent Harley-Davidson oil.


and Table 1 says:

Quote:



Table 1. Recommended Engine Oils
TYPE / VISCOSITY / RATING / LOWEST AMBIENT TEMPERATURE / COLD-WEATHER STARTS BELOW 50°F (10°C)


Screamin’ Eagle SYN3 Full Synthetic Motorcycle Lubricant / SAE 20W50 / HD 360 / Above -1 °C (30.2 °F) / Excellent

Genuine Harley-Davidson H-D 360 Motorcycle Oil / SAE 20W50 / HD 360 / Above 4 °C (39.2 °F) / Good

Genuine Harley-Davidson H-D 360 Motorcycle Oil / SAE 50 / HD 360 / Above 16 °C (60.8 °F) / Poor

Genuine Harley-Davidson H-D 360 Motorcycle Oil / SAE 60 / HD 360 / Above 27 °C (80.6 °F) / Poor


This is essentially the same thing that my 2014 manual says excepting that there is no mention of “S” models which didn’t exist and only CVO bikes came filled with SYN3 then.

For the uninitiated the models listed as coming factory filled with SYN3 are the 114CI versions. In the past these have had a sticker on the primary stating such (and have had SYN3 in the primary and Trans as well IIRC).

FWIW, I did not care for SYN3 in the trans and primary, the engine doesn’t really seem to care.

You will certainly alleviate the possibility of an argument in case of an oil related failure by using HD oil (and there is nothing wrong with it other than the price).

Also, there is a lot more to the 1000mi service than simply changing the fluids, so if you do it yourself get a FSM and keep records of it having been done completely.
 
Last edited:
Given that info, I would not fear a 15w-40 grade of HDEO. However, if the OP feels better with a 20w-50, there are plenty of ones to choose from, such as the dino Valvoline V-twin oil; cheap and easy at WM.

50 or 60 mono grade?
crazy2.gif
 
Last edited:
I’m sure this is probably going to start yet another argument, but here goes...

While I agree that:

  • The engine will likely do fine on most any oil close to the HDEO specs.
  • The chances of an oil related failure are fairly low


There are a few things to note:

A modern EPA compliant air/oil cooled HD runs the oil quite warm.

“HD360” is both the name of the oil and a “rating”. There is AFAIK no other oil that meets the HD360 rating. Even though they give you the option of HDEO in an emergency, they take it back by telling you to change back to 100% HD oil at the first opportunity. This clearly isn’t a liscense to run HDEO all the time.

The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act doesn’t carry the same weight it once did, we even have a federal agency (EPA) forcing HD into a court settlement that appears to be in violation of M-M.

Even if you ultimately prevail in case against HD under M-M, you will have spent the cost of the bike (several times over likely) and by the time the case has reached the final conclusion the bike will be eligible for display in a museum.

While every one is free to ignore manufacturer recommendations, one should do so with the realization that you do so at your peril. One of the Lawyers in the case against John Eagle Collision has said that manufacturers “recommendations” should be considered “requirements” and while that case is about something different (repair method) it is likely that the manufacturers “recommendation” would be considered to be the “expert” on maintenance if it comes to that.

In the case of oil it is likely that using something labeled by the manufacturer of the oil (IE something labeled for a V-Twin Motorcycle) would alleviate some of the risk of warranty denial, and might open you up to a warranty or assistance from the oil manufacturer in case of a warranty denial, but if you’re using a product off label it could get risky. It might be worth a cruise through the parts department to see what they are selling in addition to HD oil, for instance if they are selling Amsoil, Bel Ray, Spectro or Red Line as many do, it is unlikely that they are going to try to deny coverage if one of the brands they sell in the sump, Wal Mart Castrol GTX, maybe not so much...

With that in mind, you have to ask yourself if the hassle/risk is worth $40.00 per year over 2 years... Harley dealers are not as a general rule known for liberal warranty application.

In other words, from the standpoint of Warranty, it will be fine until it isn’t fine. At the point at which they tell you it isn’t covered it is going to be a huge expensive mess whether you win or lose in the end.
 
Last edited:
Harley can and will deny warranty coverage at their discretion. Whether it's oil, or exhaust system changes, or whatever . And you as the motoring public will have to file a lawsuit or complaint if you feel your in the right and the moco is wrong. At your expense. I'm sure Harley has more money to waste on what they consider trivial lawsuits, then the average Harley owner does. Even when it's been pointed out about poor engineering on Harleys behalf, they claim there's no problem and the suits go nowhere. So if your looking to save yourself alot of grief and money in the long or even short run, don't waste money on their extended warranty, find aftermarket products that do the same or better job as factory supplied parts. Oils, spark plugs, tires, wheels, stereo's, seats, exhaust systems, camshafts, led lighting ect. Don't be scared into thinking they know everything about their bikes. If they did, they would build them better and extend the factory warranty to 5 years like Yamaha's does, and not charge you to cover the cost of repairing their poor quality by selling your an extended warranty. Use whatever oil your happy with and don't buy into the moco's scare tactics.,,
 
Originally Posted By: BigCahuna
If they did, they would build them better and extend the factory warranty to 5 years like Yamaha's does ...

Which Yamahas have a 5 year factory warranty? My 2016 XSR900 was only 1 year.
 
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: BigCahuna
If they did, they would build them better and extend the factory warranty to 5 years like Yamaha's does ...

Which Yamahas have a 5 year factory warranty? My 2016 XSR900 was only 1 year.


Some of the Star branded Yamaha Motorcycles over the years have had a 5 year warranty. The Star branded bikes aren't built any better than the Yamaha branded models. Yamaha is just adding an additional incentive to those specific models, to entice buyers.
 
Back in the day, H-D had their own ratings for oil.
All single grade stuff, up to 105 IIRC, it was roughly
straight 50 or 60 wt.
pretty thick but the engines were cast iron then too.
 
Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
I’m sure this is probably going to start yet another argument, but here goes...

While I agree that:

  • The engine will likely do fine on most any oil close to the HDEO specs.
  • The chances of an oil related failure are fairly low


There are a few things to note:

A modern EPA compliant air/oil cooled HD runs the oil quite warm.

“HD360” is both the name of the oil and a “rating”. There is AFAIK no other oil that meets the HD360 rating. Even though they give you the option of HDEO in an emergency, they take it back by telling you to change back to 100% HD oil at the first opportunity. This clearly isn’t a liscense to run HDEO all the time.

The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act doesn’t carry the same weight it once did, we even have a federal agency (EPA) forcing HD into a court settlement that appears to be in violation of M-M.

Even if you ultimately prevail in case against HD under M-M, you will have spent the cost of the bike (several times over likely) and by the time the case has reached the final conclusion the bike will be eligible for display in a museum.

While every one is free to ignore manufacturer recommendations, one should do so with the realization that you do so at your peril. One of the Lawyers in the case against John Eagle Collision has said that manufacturers “recommendations” should be considered “requirements” and while that case is about something different (repair method) it is likely that the manufacturers “recommendation” would be considered to be the “expert” on maintenance if it comes to that.

In the case of oil it is likely that using something labeled by the manufacturer of the oil (IE something labeled for a V-Twin Motorcycle) would alleviate some of the risk of warranty denial, and might open you up to a warranty or assistance from the oil manufacturer in case of a warranty denial, but if you’re using a product off label it could get risky. It might be worth a cruise through the parts department to see what they are selling in addition to HD oil, for instance if they are selling Amsoil, Bel Ray, Spectro or Red Line as many do, it is unlikely that they are going to try to deny coverage if one of the brands they sell in the sump, Wal Mart Castrol GTX, maybe not so much...

With that in mind, you have to ask yourself if the hassle/risk is worth $40.00 per year over 2 years... Harley dealers are not as a general rule known for liberal warranty application.

In other words, from the standpoint of Warranty, it will be fine until it isn’t fine. At the point at which they tell you it isn’t covered it is going to be a huge expensive mess whether you win or lose in the end.


No, maybe not a license to run all the time and your points are valid, but....

If you can prove regular oil changes with an oil mentioned in the manual you wont be denied warranty. (my feelings) Just the fact that diesel oil can be used in a "emergency" gives the bike owner an out, meaning they would then have to prove you didnt use it for just an emergency. I mean we are really splitting hairs here what company would realistically contest that.

If you are using a VTWIN motorcycle oil, you have no out, motorcycle oil is not mentioned in the owners manual except for HD 360. VTWIN motorcycle oil is in most all cases formulated like a gasoline SG/SJ oil, Not a diesel CH4+. HD 360 is formulated like a diesel oil.
(this post will be a little repetitive as I came back in to edit it*L*)

You mention that you can look on the shelves of the dealership for Amsoil, Belray or any V TWIN labeled oil and then use one of them and maybe have an "out" with any warranty issue. That would not be true, a dealer is not Harley Davidson and a dealer does not make warranty decisions.

But in the context of your post mentioning "diesel" oil for the same reason, Amsoil or ANY VTWIN motorcycle oil on the market would be a far more clear violation of the warranty as it doesnt even come close to meeting the requirements of "emergency" use in the owners manual.

Bottom line, I would think you would be far more likely to have a warranty issue using an oil other then HD oil or Diesel oil as standard motorcycle oil does not meet HD requirements for even "emergency use".

With all the above said, Harley Davidson is not going to have the oil analyzed to see if its the proper oil unless there is some gross non explainable reason for the engine failure.

Yet if they did, you have a clear out if your using Diesel oil and not motorcycle oil.
Its in the book you can use diesel oil in an emergency and the proper grade, it is not in the book you can use VTWIN oil.

Correct, the oil runs hot, I have intimate knowledge of oil temps on my Road King, every type of trip we do. On a Rushmore bike the shop manual lists as 230 for normal but have measured an extreme of 275 this year (traffic).
However normal on a almost 100 degree day, 2 up with luggage, GPS 80MPH you will see the mid 250s.
I suspect Harley (I could be wrong) maybe concerned with piston and ring deposits and why the ref to diesel oil in an emergency as I know provided by you, the VOA on HD 360 is closely matches that of diesel. I would consider VTWIN motorcycle oil "off label" and why I say we are splitting hairs for something that will never happen.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: alarmguy
...

You mention that you can look on the shelves of the dealership for Amsoil, Belray or any V TWIN labeled oil and then use one of them and maybe have an "out" with any warranty issue. That would not be true, a dealer is not Harley Davidson and a dealer does not make warranty decisions.

....


Point of clarification:

The dealer is the first link in the warranty chain, IME (other than HD admittedly) if the dealer doesn’t make an issue of it, the manufacturer probably will not. So the dealer is less likely to make an issue of it if they sell it.

If HD does make an issue of it they will probably do so by asking for maintenance records, if you can’t produce them you will have a problem at that point.

We have all been down this road before so we know there isn’t agreement on it.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
Originally Posted By: alarmguy
...

You mention that you can look on the shelves of the dealership for Amsoil, Belray or any V TWIN labeled oil and then use one of them and maybe have an "out" with any warranty issue. That would not be true, a dealer is not Harley Davidson and a dealer does not make warranty decisions.

....


Point of clarification:

The dealer is the first link in the warranty chain, IME (other than HD admittedly) if the dealer doesn’t make an issue of it, the manufacturer probably will not. So the dealer is less likely to make an issue of it if they sell it.

If HD does make an issue of it they will probably do so by asking for maintenance records, if you can’t produce them you will have a problem at that point.

We have all been down this road before so we know there isn’t agreement on it.





Yup, its hard to agree on Speculation when it goes against fact.
use HD 360 oil only and CH4 or better Diesel oil in an emergency is the only fact.

The rest is speculation, sometimes on things that never happen and impossible to all agree on it.
 
Last edited:
Here's another way to look at it. Since the introduction of the Twin Cam designed motor, Harley has had numerous recalls for oil related problem in their motors . And the majority of those problems were with fairly new bikes that were using Harley's own oil. How can that be?.The test for durability of those motors were placed on the new unsuspecting owners. So after dropping a bundle of cash purchasing the bikes , they had to do battle with the moco and convince them their design was flawed. Excessive heat, plastic cam shoes, cheaper for Harley buy bearings, motor and wheel instead of the tried and true proven to work longer ones, lifters that are hit and miss whether they will last more then 20k miles before they won't hold pressure and need replacement. And don't forget oil pumps that stop scavenging oil from the crankcases and cause Sumping. All while using Harley's premium high priced, non API rated, subcontracted out to the lowest bidder, only available at Harley dealer, and coincidentally the only brand oil listed in any Harley manual for use in their vehicles. Using aftermarket brand oil won't correct any problems related to poor design, but either will using Harley's oil. One thing you can be sure of is that if you were ever to have a warranty issue with your motor, you can pretty much count on having a battle on your hands to get it resolved. They will tie your bike up in their service dept for most of the riding season waiting for a factory rep to come and make the final decision of what caused it. Then if they take the blame, will start the repair process. Weeks or month's can go by, and in the meantime your bikeless. And guess what? they don't care. They got your money and the time wasted fixing your bike is time better spent on full price repair work, not warranty work. Remember this when you defend using Harley's recommend products.,,
 
And it seems I was both right and wrong.

There is a rather long thread on HD forums “The warranty issue is real.”.

To summarize (if what is being said in the thread is true) HD is now voiding the entire powertrain warranty on any 17 up model bike with any non-HD certified EPA controlled part. (for instance slip-ons).

If what is being said is true EVEN if said part is EPA certified, it still must be HD approved. Clearly their lawyers have studied the consent decree and decided that they can get away with this. - It seems a clear cut violation of M-M to me, and not contained in the consent decree either.

It is also being said that the dealer is required to produce a picture of the bike and exhaust if requested, so they are taking it out of the dealers hands.

It likely won’t be long before they figure out if they can get away with declining warranty for NON-HD maintenance parts. EPA has taught them that M-M is meaningless and it seems they will use that to their advantage.

So I retract my advice about what the dealer is selling.

If your warranty on a 17 up bike is important to you, ride it stock (or Screamin’ Eagle) and use the “recommended” parts.



Originally Posted By: alarmguy
Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
Originally Posted By: alarmguy
...

You mention that you can look on the shelves of the dealership for Amsoil, Belray or any V TWIN labeled oil and then use one of them and maybe have an "out" with any warranty issue. That would not be true, a dealer is not Harley Davidson and a dealer does not make warranty decisions.

....


Point of clarification:

The dealer is the first link in the warranty chain, IME (other than HD admittedly) if the dealer doesn’t make an issue of it, the manufacturer probably will not. So the dealer is less likely to make an issue of it if they sell it.

If HD does make an issue of it they will probably do so by asking for maintenance records, if you can’t produce them you will have a problem at that point.

We have all been down this road before so we know there isn’t agreement on it.





Yup, its hard to agree on Speculation when it goes against fact.
use HD 360 oil only and CH4 or better Diesel oil in an emergency is the only fact.

The rest is speculation, sometimes on things that never happen and impossible to all agree on it.


Since it says:

Quote:
At the first opportunity, see an authorized dealer to change back to 100 percent Harley-Davidson oil.


That’s an out for them. Unless you believe that the “first opportunity” is never.

If you are using the listed oils routinely you’re just as off label as anything else.

Two years ago I would have said that the chances of them making an issue of it were just about zero, post EPA consent decree id say the chances of them making an issue of it are much better.
 
"If what is being said is true EVEN if said part is EPA certified, it still must be HD approved". I believe you have that backwards. Harley must use parts that are EPA approved, to get their approval. If it was left up to Harley, all bikes would come with Drag pipes. Once any given part is installed on a vehicle where the EPA has jurisdiction, it cannot be legally removed, or have a unauthorised / non EPA part used in it's place. Like the MM act doesn't seem to have any teeth, there aren't too many agency's actively seeking out the makers of non approved parts, and stopping they're sale to vehicles used on the streets. Harley's new stand on changing out exhaust systems is no, we aren't going to sell or install them. The risk of fines is too great for dealerships to risk especially in times of slow sales. Air cleaners and exhausts are the first thing people do when they buy a new Harley. They want bikes that sound like Harley's of yesterday, not washing machines.So you run the risk of warranty claim denial if you show up with a V&H 2 into one exhaust on your 2017 bike. Riding a bike is risky enough without having to worry about fixing things that haven't broken in 2 years of ownership.,,,
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

M
Another oil comparison Motul vs Lucas vs Amsoil
Replies
6
Views
1K
repairman54
V
AMSOIL Metric Motorcycle OR Dirt Bike??
2
Replies
30
Views
2K
BusyLittleShop
B
Ester based motorcycle oil
4 5 6
Replies
102
Views
6K
bioilcurious
I
Amsoil Motorcycle Oil - why is API rating outdated?
2 3
Replies
44
Views
4K
Bonz
BigJohn
Story of buying a used bike....
2
Replies
24
Views
706
97prizm
Back
Top Bottom