Amsoil Motorcycle Oil - why is API rating outdated?

[Instarand]

Looking at Amsoil’s 10w30 synthetic metric motorcycle oil. Noticing that the API rating is SH which seems very outdated, and the manual to my Honda 300 calls for SJ or newer. Does this signify an outdated product?

Does anybody know why Amsoil’s API ratings are so outdated on the motorcycle side? In comparison, their automotive oils appear to be SM and SN - at least the few I searched.

And comparing to motorcycle oil competition, Liqui Molly, Motul and others have API ratings of SM/SN.

Anybody have experience or thoughts on why Amsoil, the king (lol), would lack here?

It seems the JASO MA/MA2 rating for wet clutch applications is most important, which Amsoil motorcycle products do meet. But I just find it strange about the API.

 

[Brian123]

Looking at Amsoil’s 10w30 synthetic metric motorcycle oil. Noticing that the API rating is SH which seems very outdated, and the manual to my Honda 300 calls for SJ or newer. Does this signify an outdated product?

Does anybody know why Amsoil’s API ratings are so outdated on the motorcycle side? In comparison, their automotive oils appear to be SM and SN - at least the few I searched.

And comparing to motorcycle oil competition, Liqui Molly, Motul and others have API ratings of SM/SN.

Anybody have experience or thoughts on why Amsoil, the king (lol), would lack here?

It seems the JASO MA/MA2 rating for wet clutch applications is most important, which Amsoil motorcycle products do meet. But I just find it strange about the API.

Call there Tech Line!

 

[skyactiv]

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/old-bikes-and-old-api.333225/

 

[Pablo]

Looking at Amsoil’s 10w30 synthetic metric motorcycle oil. Noticing that the API rating is SH which seems very outdated, and the manual to my Honda 300 calls for SJ or newer. Does this signify an outdated product?

Does anybody know why Amsoil’s API ratings are so outdated on the motorcycle side? In comparison, their automotive oils appear to be SM and SN - at least the few I searched.

And comparing to motorcycle oil competition, Liqui Molly, Motul and others have API ratings of SM/SN.

Anybody have experience or thoughts on why Amsoil, the king (lol), would lack here?

It seems the JASO MA/MA2 rating for wet clutch applications is most important, which Amsoil motorcycle products do meet. But I just find it strange about the API.

Bottom line is you don't need the lower additive levels of SM/SN in your MC engine

 

[MParr]

It’s a motorcycle oil. Why worry about an API approval? If it meets the JASO requirements, that’s all that matters.

 

[Instarand]

Call there Tech Line!

Yep, I did that. He didn’t have a ton of info on this. He just said Amsoil “makes an exception” on their warranty guarantee for the 10w30 over riding the non compliant API rating.

 

[Instarand]

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/old-bikes-and-old-api.333225/

Thanks. Some good info in here.

 

[Instarand]

Bottom line is you don't need the lower additive levels of SM/SN in your MC engine

Yep. Just curious why a company like amsoil doesn’t keep up with API like the competition. If for no other reason than optics.

 

[Instarand]

It’s a motorcycle oil. Why worry about an API approval? If it meets the JASO requirements, that’s all that matters.

Yep. Less worried, and more curious about the reasoning. Wondering if the oil simply doesn’t meet modern API, or it does but there some political, financial, operational reason that amsoil doesn’t care to get the certification.

 

[Pablo]

Yep. Just curious why a company like amsoil doesn’t keep up with API like the competition. If for no other reason than optics.

Not quite understanding. Claiming SM would be incorrect

 

[Bonz]

You said it best, OP. Amsoil meets JASO/MA2 and even then, there have been oils historically that are proven to work and have not had any JASO rating at the time. More recent ratings typically reduce the additives and haven't ever proven to be a detriment that I have seen posted here, ever. Don't make it harder than it needs to be.

 

[kschachn]

Yep. Less worried, and more curious about the reasoning. Wondering if the oil simply doesn’t meet modern API, or it does but there some political, financial, operational reason that amsoil doesn’t care to get the certification.

Because you’re better off without it.

This is like those complaining an oil doesn’t have an API license when it carries a European approval.

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Motorcycles are in the minority and consequently none of the API
service categories are Motorcycle Specific... So we pick and choose
among the majority Auto service categories that best suits our
needs... Technically speaking any service categories will meet and
exceed our mileage expectations and thus no need to worry...


The current and obsolete API Service Categories are listed here... it
doesn't matter if you can't find SJ anymore because there were nothing
in those early API SE SG SH ratings that were motorcycle specific and
overall they will not provide the same level of performance or
protection as the current SL SM SN specifications... Manufactures want
customers to chose the most current oil service category that is why
Manuals state to either meet SJ or exceed SG API service category...

SA Obsolete For older engines; no performance requirement.

SB Obsolete For older engines.

SC Obsolete For model year 1967 and older engines.

SE Obsolete For model year 1979 and older engines.

SF Obsolete For model year 1988 and older engines.

SG - Introduced 1989 has much more active dispersant to combat black
sludge.

SH - Introduced 1993 has same engine tests as SG, but includes
phosphorus limit 0.12%, together with control of foam, volatility and
shear stability.

SJ - Introduced 1996 has the same engine tests as SG/SH, but
phosphorus limit 0.10% together with variation on volatility limits

SL - Introduced 2001, all new engine tests reflective of modern engine
designs meeting current emissions standards

SM - Introduced November 2004, improved oxidation resistance, deposit
protection and wear protection, also better low temperature
performance over the life of the oil compared to previous categories.

SN - Introduced in October 2010 for 2011 and older vehicles, designed to
provide improved high temperature deposit protection for pistons, more
stringent sludge control, and seal compatibility. API SN with Resource
Conserving matches ILSAC GF-5 by combining API SN performance with
improved fuel economy, turbocharger protection, emission control
system compatibility, and protection of engines operating on
ethanol-containing fuels up to E85.

SP - API SP is the new minimum engine oil standard developed to address
the critical needs of today's engines; including chain wear, Low Speed
Pre-Ignition, and deposit formation. API SP is the foundation for the
ILSAC GF-6 specification but does not include fuel economy. API SP is
available for different viscosity grades.Feb 19, 2020

 

[jeff78]

The later API classifications have limits on the amounts of certain additives (e.g. zinc, phosphorous, etc.) that are allowed. So if Amsoil's formula exceeds those limits, it will not meet that classification.

 

[alarmguy]

deleted

 

[bulwnkl]

@Instarand it most likely means that particular product has more phosphorus in it than JASO MA allows, though in principle it _could_ mean it allows more wear than newer API specs allow (I kinda doubt Amsoil has tested that). Note that the 10W40 version of the product claims SM, and the 5W40 version of the product claims SN.

Bottom line is you don't need the lower additive levels of SM/SN in your MC engine

I understand where you're coming from, but those levels are not relevant because JASO T903:2023 has its own physiochemical properties specs which replace those and set the additive level limit everyone thinks they're concerned about.

Moreover, I _DO_ want the lower wear requirements in the newer standards, so if I can get a JASO MA fluid that's an SP, I'll take that every time over one that's only SH, for example.

JASO T903:2023 _requires_ the performance specified by one of: API SJ, SL, SM, SN, SN Plus, or SP, but excluding the RC or Resource Conserving portions of those specs. If a given product says it's only an SH quality fluid, then it doesn't meet JASO requirements.

See page 5 (pdf page 8) of the JASO T903:2023 manual, here:
https://www.jalos.or.jp/onfile/pdf/4T_EV2305.pdf

I'll note that no current Amsoil or Red Line product appears on the JASO 4T (MA) approval list. There's one Amsoil product on it, and it's the discontinued 4T 10W40 product. All Red Line's powersports oils have FAAAR too much phosphorus to be JASO-listed. I've been using Red Line and Amsoil in my bikes for years and have been happy with them, but they're not on the JASO list and at least some don't meet JASO T903 specs. See here for what's definitely compliant and approved:
https://www.jalos.or.jp/onfile/pdf/4T_EV_LIST.pdf

 

[Bonz]

With respect to phosphorus, why/why not would a higher level preclude/include an oil as JASO MA or not today vs 10 or 30 years years ago? Clutches have not changed one iota in 30+ years. Sure there are slipper clutches, however never heard a single instance where phosphorus and/or zinc (which typically go hand in hand in terms of amounts) compromised/improved performance. Wet clutch compatibility is #1 with respect to JASO MA rating to my knowledge. From life and on road experience, haven't seen anywhere near (basically nil) the issues that are purported to occur when running non-JASO oil. Phosphorus is a non-player, IMO. Splitting hairs is what we do on this site and get undies in a bundle over.

From using Redline 20w50 and Amsoil 20w50 in my modded ZRX1200 (145 hp, 87 ft/lbs and 81,000+ miles on the original clutch), both do the job with zero issues.

 

[bulwnkl]

It did preclude an oil as JASO MA 10 and more years ago, just like it does today. You must have missed it, or not read the spec. The JASO T903 spec includes phosphorus limits (high and low), just like it limits sulfated ash, HTHS, shear stability, and foaming, and has for a very long time (I think since inception). You can see the last three versions of the T903 spec on this page:
https://www.jalos.or.jp/onfile/jaso_e-2.htm

That means the API limits on phorphorus have nothing to do with JASO certification. The API phosphorus limits are replaced by the JASO phosphorus limits. The portion of the API quality spec(s) that remains in force for JASO T903 are the elements not specified by JASO itself, which includes the engine wear limits.

I've only occasionally come to this board for some years now, but I've posted a couple things like UOAs here. I _think_ I've posted a result from L-E's diesel 10W30 in a shared-sump bike. It seemed to work very well, as far as a UOA can display. So did Red Line's fluid back when it was a JASO MB fluid, in terms of frictional characteristics. I was well pleased when they reformulated to bring friction into the MA range, though.

 

[BigCahuna]

JASO specs only refer to Japanese motorcycles. Harley makes their own specs which are very vague. I don't know about what Indian, they probably sell oil that says "oil for use in Indian motorcycles". I used oil in the Kawasaki I had that had a jaso 2, API rating. It was a 2 cylinder water cooled engine, that shared the oil between the engine and trans. Harley's have 3 compartments that each have a specific oil, that harley says to use. Or you can use their synthetic oil in all of them. Or you can use Diesel oil in it, if your in a bind and that's all you can get your hands on. But then go on to say to change it back to their oil as soon as you can. That says to me any oil is better than no oil, so run what you want.,,

 

[ZeeOSix]

JASO T903:2023 _requires_ the performance specified by one of: API SJ, SL, SM, SN, SN Plus, or SP, but excluding the RC or Resource Conserving portions of those specs. If a given product says it's only an SH quality fluid, then it doesn't meet JASO requirements.

See page 5 (pdf page 8) of the JASO T903:2023 manual, here:
https://www.jalos.or.jp/onfile/pdf/4T_EV2305.pdf

I'm wondering if the oil sellers haven't caught up to JASO T903:2023 yet. The last JASO T903 update before the latest 2023 version was version 2016, and this is what that JASO spec shows. Shows API down to SG.