Old Bikes And Old API

[Waylander]

Hi All first post, so go gentle,

I not interested in whos oil is better, the thing that is confusing me right now is the required API, the bike is a 1985 VF1000F2F, i have the workshop manual and in there it states Use Honda 4 Stroke Oil with the API classification of SE or SF, these bikes were renowned to have soft cams and I would think they need some ZDDP in the mix,
one of the sites I visited stated :-

API recommends following the Original Equipment Manufacturer’s (OEMs) oil recommendations on your owner’s manual. Typically, an API SJ through SM engine oil would include some friction modifier. Do not use unless an API SJ, SL or SM rating is specifically called for by your motorcycle manufacturer!

now that has chucked a spanner in my works, as most if not all oils are now SM or later...

So what do I do now, I am a bit lost in this confusing and mad world of oils,

 

[SuperSalad]

If you use an oil with a JASO MA, MA1, or MA2 rating you'll be guaranteed to have an oil ok for the bike and the transmission, and a minimum phosphorus content (typically attributed to ZDDP) of 800 ppm to 1200 ppm regardless of API ratings.

Edit: Just to clarify, if it is JASO rated, it should also carry some statement or guarantee it meets or exceeds the API ratings the bike requires.

 

[Waylander]

Hi Thanks for that, but its the part about don't use anything past SJ as they have friction modifiers in them, and all those JASO are much later than the manual for this old bike,

I don't really want to fry the clutch, and the gear change is currently horrid and stiff, and when cold crashes into first gear like a non syncromesh bus from 1955.

I really need to change the oil for the right stuff, god knows what the previous bodger I bought it off has put in there, some of the fixes he managed were life threatening

 

[khittner1]

There are a number of SG-rated oils out there for motorcycles, that should have the requisite load of ZDDP and are still able to manage wet clutch use. Nice old bike.

 

[ollie]

If you use an oil with a JASO MA, MA1, or MA2 rating you'll be guaranteed to have an oil ok for the bike and the transmission, and a minimum phosphorus content (typically attributed to ZDDP) of 800 ppm to 1200 ppm regardless of API ratings.

Edit: Just to clarify, if it is JASO rated, it should also carry some statement or guarantee it meets or exceeds the API ratings the bike requires.

This is great advice. That is one clean looking VF1000!!! Main thing I wold do is use a quality oil. I'm pretty sure you have gear driven cams so I would recommend something like Motul 300V in the 10W 40 range.

 

[Waylander]

Hi

You are not quite correct the VF1000R had gear driven cams, this is a chain drive system on this bike, the photo is from the day I picked it up, looks better now, there are only 27 left registered in the UK according to the DMV / DVLA, and this version was not shipped to the USA.

So I can use something like Shell Advance AX7, or Silkolene COMP 4.

the big V4 pulls like a train, never ridden a bike with so much low down torque.

 

[blupupher]

Around the SH timeframe "regular" gasoline engine oils started using friction modifiers that are bad for wet clutches.
Most all Honda bikes say to use SG rated oil with the JASO rating, which is what Honda oil is.
So long as you are using an oil made specifically for motorcycles with a JASO certification, or even JASO recommendation (ie Rotella, some other motorcycle specific oils), or pretty much any oil without friction modifiers (any HDOE or most 10w-40 oil, like Mobil 1 10w-40 high mileage), you will be fine.

 

[Chris142]

Maxima used to be loaded with anti wear stuff. Assuming it still is it should be fine for the cams.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Hi Thanks for that, but its the part about don't use anything past SJ as they have friction modifiers in them, and all those JASO are much later than the manual for this old bike,

I don't really want to fry the clutch, and the gear change is currently horrid and stiff, and when cold crashes into first gear like a non syncromesh bus from 1955.

Wet clutches in new motorcycles are no different than the wet clutch in your bike. Most JASO rated oil for motorcycles will also carry API ratings of SJ or SL.

I've used Valvoline 10W-40 conventional motorcycle oil in a couple of my bikes, and it's rated JASO MA2 and API SL.

 

[BusyLittleShop]

I'll be gentle... but I speak with 36 years of extensive Honda V4 experience... owners will crate their RC30 RC45 to my shop for troubleshooting and engineering mods... if you have a problem chances are I've already dealt with it...

If your Honda manual states like my 94 RC45 manual it calls for oil to be certified to meet or
exceed API SE, SF or SG... the new SL SM SN are desirable because it exceeds those out dated API classifications...

Honda only recommends API ratings which sets minimum for performance
standards for lubricants... there is nothing in those early API SE SG
SH ratings that are motorcycle specific... SE SG SH are now obsolete...

SG - Introduced 1989 has much more active dispersant to combat black
sludge.

SH - Introduced 1993 has same engine tests as SG, but includes
phosphorus limit 0.12%, together with control of foam, volatility and
shear stability.

SJ - Introduced 1996 has the same engine tests as SG/SH, but
phosphorus limit 0.10% together with variation on volatility limits

SL - Introduced 2001, all new engine tests reflective of modern engine
designs meeting current emissions standards

SM - Introduced November 2004, improved oxidation resistance, deposit
protection and wear protection, also better low temperature
performance over the life of the oil compared to previous categories.

SN - Introduced in October 2010 for 2011 and older vehicles, designed to
provide improved high temperature deposit protection for pistons, more
stringent sludge control, and seal compatibility. API SN with Resource
Conserving matches ILSAC GF-5 by combining API SN performance with
improved fuel economy, turbocharger protection, emission control
system compatibility, and protection of engines operating on
ethanol-containing fuels up to E85.

ZDDP
Higher zddp levels does not provide any more wear protection than
normal levels... rather higher zddp levels the more miles the
protection will last... but thats a moot point given most riders plans to
shorten the oil change interval of 2 to 3K...

Friction Modifiers
Friction modifiers additives are only a small percent of the total oil product and help
the base oil do things that it otherwise could not... Additives fall into several basic
categories but Moly, Phosphors and Zinc are the most often used friction modifiers... what
ever small percent of FM employed they will not defeat a wet clutch in good working order...

Clutch
The holy trinity of science is 1)Reason 2)Observation 3)Experience...
employing those tools we observe that the primary cause clutch slip
are high mileage... mileage is the constant among all of the clutches
that begin to slip... oil choice whether JASO approved or not is not a
constant... High mileage is the constant where all clutches begin to
loose grip due to normal glazing and contaminates that build up over use...

 

[ZeeOSix]

^^^ Honda says that xW-30 is only good for ambient temps to 92F.

 

[BusyLittleShop]

^^^ Honda says that xW-30 is only good for ambient temps to 92F.

Honda provides a guide to the selection... you may select either a 30 or 40... I recommend 30 365 days a year because Blackstone data shows viscosity between a 30 and 40 is the same for longevity...

The Importance of Viscosity?
Quote Blackstone Labs

The viscosity, or thickness of the oil, is not nearly as important
as many people think. Oil retains its nature no matter what thickness
it is.Think about this: automakers are continually recommending
lighter multi-grade oil in new engines. The reason is increased
efficiency. It takes power to pump oil through an engine, and the
lighter the oil, the less power required to pump it. The oil’s ability
to act like a solid and protect parts is not related to its thickness.
If that doesn’t sound quite right, consider this: The gears in a
heavy duty Allison automatic transmission are doing the same work as
the same machine equipped with an Eaton manual transmission. Due to
the hydraulics of the automatic, it runs on a 10W automatic
transmission oil.But the manual transmission uses a very thick
(sometimes up to 90W)gear lube oil. The gears of both types of
transmissions will have a similar life span. We don’t find any
significant differences in wear, regardless of oil thickness.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Honda provides a guide to the selection... you may select either a 30 or 40... I recommend 30 365 days a year because Blackstone data shows viscosity between a 30 and 40 is not as important as many people think...

Blackstone are not Honda Engineers who understand tribology.

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Blackstone's engineers not only understand friction, wear, lubrication in the science of interacting surfaces in relative motion or tribology but they also have the critical test data...

 

[kschachn]

Blackstone's engineers not only understand friction, wear, lubrication in the science of interacting surfaces in relative motion or tribology but they also have the critical test data...

Actually Blackstone Labs has zero “critical test data” and know little of anything about interacting surfaces and motion. Honda does but Blackstone does not. Blackstone runs an oil analysis lab which is nothing of the sort of what a motorcycle manufacturer does.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Blackstone's engineers not only understand friction, wear, lubrication in the science of interacting surfaces in relative motion or tribology but they also have the critical test data...

Based on the Blackstone statement you always post, I'd say they don't know much about tribology. If they did know, they wouldn't make statements of misconception.

 

[Ride_Red]

Use any motorcycle specific oil that has the JASO MA or MA2 rating on it. Any of the name brand motorcycle oils will work just fine. The motorcycle oils tend to have higher ZDDP than regular passenger car motor oils.

I've used Mobil 1 4T 10W-40, Valvoline 4T 10W-40 (conventional & synthetic), Castrol 4T 10W-30 & 10W-40, Honda GN4 10W-30. All worked just fine.

The Honda GN4 conventional motor oil is recommended by Honda for all Honda motorcycles, past and present. Seems to me that if this conventional motorcycle oil is fine, then any name brand synthetic motorcycle should also be just fine.

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Actually Blackstone Labs has zero “critical test data” and know little of anything about interacting surfaces and motion.

Negative...

The owner of 1976 Honda CB550 race bike oil sample proved to be
critical when it showed a change in copper. The increase was not a
major change, but copper used to read as low as 3 ppm so Blackstone
wondered if something was developing. Because it’s a race bike, the
owner tears down the engine every winter to check for wear and renew
any parts as needed. When he did the teardown after this report, he
found an internal oil line had failed and the rod bearings were on
their way to seizing. Finding the problem before failure saved the
rods, crank, and potentially the entire engine...

 

[ZeeOSix]

^^^ What's with the high lead counts ... was this guy running 5W-30 to gain a few more HP on the track?

 

[Bonz]

I would say it was race fuel that had some Pb in it. But you probably already figured that out.