US Cars vs Japan

[Al]

I guess my problem is not with the location of where they are made. As has been pointed out-American Industry can produce high quality vehicles in "American" and "Japanese" car lines. And of course you can find any number of GM engines/drive train that can go the distance.

My issue is with the "build it just as good as it needs to be to get by-and don't do any innovation which will put the vehicle ahead of other car manufactures (read $$$$$$)) GM corporate mentality.

Sorry GM (to me) builds dynasaurs for the masses. Just an opinion. And there are some exceptions out there. Right off of the top I can't think of any now though.

My last3 GM vehicles (too use Al Gores words

)were "miserable failures".

 

[mikep]

While I've had my share of GM beaters during my teen and early 20s, I've never been a GM man per say. I've pretty much always been a Ford person when possible (oh I can just hear the jabs already). I won't get into a GM this or GM that argument since as has already been pointed out that every one of the big 3 have had their engineering foul ups.

I must painfully admit that the '03 Nissan Pathfinder I purchased for my wife may very well be the best built and overall highest quality vehicle we've ever owned. I've driven, or driven in most "American" SUVs on the market today and none of them, IMO, come close to the build quality on this Pathfinder.

The interior panels all fit perfectly with no gaps or unsightly seams with zero squeaks or rattles. The engine is incredibly quiet and so smooth you almost don't know the vehicle is running. Performance? It is almost scary quick and remains silky smooth through the entire rev range. The 3.5 ltr 6 is an amazing motor.

Of course this thing is new and for all I know it could up and die at 40,000 miles or turn out to be a very problematic vehicle (I sure hope not). But as far as intitial build quality, I must sadly (very sadly) admit the last 4 brand new Fords I've owned and the last 2 new Fords and 1 new GM my father and mother have owned don't even come close.

Strangely though, even with my obvious satisfaction with the Pathfinder I still find myself feeling somewhat guilty for buying a vehicle not built here in the USA.

Mikep

 

[Bror Jace]

There are other threads on this same topic and I think I posted in them as well. oh well, here goes ...

In general, I agree with Al and John Browning. I used to be a diehard Chevy man but wouldn’t dream of guying a GM vehicle these days. Just heard today: A guy in my office has a daughter with a 2000 Cavalier. Service engine light comes on and she brings it in: $70 diagnostic fee and light reset. No problem found. Same thing happens 1 week later and they need to put a $400 computer in the car because the original one isn’t recognizing her ignition key and it may not start one day. ***??

What Catedster said is also very true. “Buying American” when it comes to vehicles is not what it was 20+ years ago. The “Big 3” buy more foreign products in one day than I will in a lifetime. Who are they to tell me that buying their rolling junk is part of my patriotic duty?

It’s been my experience that the people who keep GM vehicles for 10+ years generally don’t see/mind crappy craftsmanship. If the car starts and gets them down the road, that’s good enough. Switches no longer working, knocking/creaking noises or interior/exterior trim pieces falling off all are not noticed. The fact that the car sits a full inch lower several years after purchase because of metal fatigue in the springs/chassis … no big deal. Well, that may be “good enough” for some but not for me. Not even close.

The small block Chevy was a brilliant design in its day (50s, 60s & 70s) but it has run its course and GM needs a replacement OHC engine, probably two, to cover the applications the smallblock has been used in. The new OHC engine needs to be lighter, more compact and produce more power per cubic inch. It also needs to be able to accept a number of different heads depending on the application (general duty, versus high-performance).

The fact that they haven’t redesigned this engine and about a thousand other components goes to show how short-sighted their approach to designs are. Remember how long it took them to come up with double overhead cam and 4-valve heads? Everyone else had them YEARS before the big 3. When they were first producing them (finall) you couldn’t find a Honda engine which wasn’t 4 valves per cylinder. I read an interview with one of their idiot PR guys in R&T in the 80s. They claimed that these were inherently flawed designs because more cams and valves caused more internal friction!

My opinion of Ford and Chrysler are about the same. The fact that the Viper has an antique pushrod engine, no matter how powerful, is a **** shame.

--- Bror Jace

 

[buster]

You guys make a lot of valid points and I'm sure you have had more experience with cars then I have. But are Suzuki's, Mazda (ford), Kia, VW's, and Nissan's that much better? I really only put Toyota and Honda above the rest.

Toyota/Honda are clearly head and sholders above the rest.

 

[labman]

A few years ago, we rented a Ford van because our friends old Suburban wasn't up to the trip that year. I can't imagine the griping if GM ever put something like it on the road. The engine was noisy, a constant drumming, the seat belt retractors didn't work, it rode poorly, the doors didn't latch right, and I forget what else. This is comparing it to the older Suburban. A few weeks later, I went on a another trip with a friend in a Dodge van much like the Ford. the Dodge was much quieter and rode better. My friends replaced the suburban with a Venture. It is much nicer than the Ford. GM may have problems, but Ford is worse.

I think people just expect more from GM, and are quick to gripe over anything at all. If Ford, Chrysler, or any of the foreign companies came out with important safety features like the anti lock brakes and daylight running lights, everybody would swoon. GM was also a leader in front wheel and computerized engine management.

[ January 02, 2004, 02:06 PM: Message edited by: labman ]

 

[Bror Jace]

" ... are Suzuki's, Mazda (ford), Kia, VW's, and Nissan's that much better? Toyota & Honda are clearly head and sholders above the rest."

You might be right about Honda & Toyota being the cream of the crop. I've heard people rave about certain Nissans & Mitsubishis ... but those brands also have their issues. Overall, though, I think the designs are solid and I would buy one ... as a matter of fact, I recently did.

The reason Daimler-Chrysler products have improved in the past 10-15 years is because of Mitsubishi designed & built powertrains.

Mazda and Ford have had something of a relationship as well but the effect has been limited ... and it might have even dragged Mazda down more than helped Ford. The reason I was interested in a couple of Mazdas a year ago but decide against buying one was largely the Ford factor.

I have no experience with KIAs or Suzuki. Hyundais used to be miserable junkers but have improved somewhat ... although not enough to make me even consider buying one.

After some experience with German cars (mostly friends owning Audis and VWs) I avoid them. They have their problems but those are far different from Big 3 quality isues. The cars tend to be very gimmicky. So, while they put effort into refinement and quality, the design's complexity usually sprouts just enough gremlins to be highly annoying unless you absolutely love the look and feel of German craftsmanship. I don't so I have no interest in VWs and if you gave me an Audi, I'd own it less than a week before dumping it. All BMWs, Porches and Mercedes are out of my price range but even if I had the money I'd probably opt for something else. Nice cars, hope the quality is "all that" but their value is suspect in my book.

My Nissan Sentra Spec-V seems to be mechanically sound enough but the brand isn't nearly as refined as a Toyota or Honda ... and their dealership network just plain sucks.

Still it was a lot of car for around $16,000 and with just under a year owning it, I don't regret its purchase.

"GM may have problems, but Ford is worse."

You might be right. I lump the "Big 3" together into one big wretched stew.

--- Bror Jace

 

[427Z06]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bror Jace:
There are other threads on this same topic and I think I posted in them as well. oh well, here goes ...
--- Bror Jace

---

Bror Jace, I agree with most of what you say here. And my earlier post was more just a silly quip, however, for us former street racers, you just gotta love a streetable 610 hp and 584 lb-ft small block chevy - a fifty year old design!!

454 SBC

Testing a 454 SBC

 

[Bob Woods]

Strangely though, even with my obvious satisfaction with the Pathfinder I still find myself feeling somewhat guilty for buying a vehicle not built here in the USA. Mikep

Me Too. My 2002 GMC Sierra was made in Canada, as was my '88 before that. Bought them both new here in the Dallas area.

 

[harper]

quote:

---

Originally posted by mikep:

Strangely though, even with my obvious satisfaction with the Pathfinder I still find myself feeling somewhat guilty for buying a vehicle not built here in the USA.

Mikep

---

On my end I have always found it a service to the American economy not to buy a domestic product when a foreign product is superior in my mind. This motivates domestic manufacturer's to come up with more innovative and quality designs. Otherwise we'd all be settling for the mediocre products or maybe not knowing better. Thank Japan and demanding US consumers for more reliable domestic designs.

 

[HOndaGuy]

It all comes down to this, do I want to support the **** American unions, or do I want a car thats going to give me my moneys worth and not give me trouble? Honestly, Im sick and tired of hearing that "buy American, don't buy jap" ppl bc they won't even tell you that their products aren't even made in america. Come on, honda and toyota are more american than ford and gm, so why the heck would I buy a car from either of the latter when its not even american made? The other excuse they give is "your supporting the japanese economny", big whoop, at least im not supporting a bunch of union members or sit on the line and don't do anything and get paid for it. American made doesn't really mean much to me now unless its tools(with the exception of makita). Ill take my import anyday over a domestic, bc it lasts longer, it will give you your money's worth, and you know your car went through better inspections than one from the big 3. You can talk about how imports don't have that much torque and how some interiors are cheesy, but id rather have a quality car than a junk car with a bigger engine that just gets you into trouble. Of course, everyone likes something different, but I like my hondas and I'll stay with them.

 

[buster]

Well, I think you guys have a made a strong case against GM and I can't argue with what you have all said. I guess my main point was that not all foreign cars are cracked up to what some think. Other then Toyota and Honda, I'm not convinced the other Japanese makes are that much better, if any. As far as the European cars go, they aren't BMW, MB and VW all have there share of problems. I can honestly name 6 people that have had tons of problems with VW's and Audi's. I wouldn't touch one of those cars.

 

[Bror Jace]

" ... for us former street racers, you just gotta love a streetable 610 hp and 584 lb-ft small block chevy - a fifty year old design!!"

I've been there and done that. Well ... OK ... it was more like 350-400hp from a 355 CID 4-bolt small block.

I just think that if you look at the last three or four decades of technological progress, we should be able to do a lot better than a pushrod engine from the 50s, that's all.

And of course, those advances would filter down to the street racers rather quickly, too.

--- Bror Jace

 

[MillerMan]

it's amazing how they claim to get some much power out a SBC, it's magic, ya they get the power, but don't say the engine will only last for 2000 miles, burns one gallon of gas in 2 miles, will not idle below 1500 rpm, has no low end torque

VW/Audi is the king of lemons, MB's can be a problem child too

 

[Quattro Pete]

quote:

---

Originally posted by buster:
I can honestly name 6 people that have had tons of problems with VW's and Audi's. I wouldn't touch one of those cars.

---

It just depends on your personal luck. Karma I guess. My US-made '00 Accord EX-V6 had tons of issues and was poorly-made overall. I got rid of it after just one year. On the other hand, I've had my A4 for over 2 years now, and no problems at all, just regular maintenance stuff...

 

[XS650]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quattro Pete:
It just depends on your personal luck. Karma I guess. My US-made '00 Accord EX-V6 had tons of issues and was poorly-made overall. I got rid of it after just one year. On the other hand, I've had my A4 for over 2 years now, and no problems at all, just regular maintenance stuff...

---

Modern cars have gotten so reliable that even the worst ones aren't all that bad. The luck of the draw can over ride statistics in any one case.

****

 

[Al]

Well with the GM 3.1 and 3.4 engines it takes more than luck to get a good one. I had 2 out of 2 leakers and my son has one out one leakers.

.

When we get serious about saving gas in this country or the dollar slide sends its price up thru the roof-GM will be looking around to dig out some of their many vehicles (oops-they don't have a lot of those) that get 30+ miles per gallon and get 145 HP out 2L engines. Oh I forgot about the Cavalier-yea that 15 year old platform will compete nicely with modern Japanese cars.

-silly me

 

[sbc350gearhead]

Millerman, Is the 6.0 that you referred to, an ls-1 derivitive like the current model? If so, I find it odd for them to bring it out in commercial vehicles 2 years before the ls-1 was installed in the vette.

The 350 is still a 350, and there is only so much it can do. The company I work for, uses nothing but 350's in our company trucks, which weigh 10-12k pounds depending on the model, and they get about 200k between engine changes. But those trucks are no road rockets, and the engines are strained to the max. In fact, I am surprised the engines last as long as they do.

As far as the older GM transmissions, The TH-400 was virtually bulletproof, and the TH-350 was also excellent, as long as you didn't get too crazy with the engine it was mated to.

My 355 powered, 3700 pound camaro runs 12.70's, gets 10 mpg (can't expect much more with no overdrive), and has about 20k on it with no problems, and I expect I will reach 100k before a rebuild. Not bad for a garage assembled engine.

But I digress from the original topic. The toyota camry I own is a TOTAL PIECE OF ****, which breaks down constantly, but I will say that the engine is smoother than any domestic 4 cylinder I have come in contact with.

MRC101 and I have discussed the OHV vs. OHC V-8 stuff in depth, and once again, I will say that while the Traditional pushrod V-8 architecture is long in the tooth, noone seems to be able to beat it yet, for the same amount of cash.

GM does have some serious bugs to work out, but with their engines and technology, if they can controll the greed of the unions and the silliness of the bean-counters, then they will remain the largest car company on earth for years to come

And saab is owned by GM.....not ford.

 

[radiometer]

Being retired after working as an accountant, I tend to seek the best value for the dollar. I've done much more driving than average, with ample experience with the 'domestics', and in more recent years with Nissans. Our 93 model went 200,000 miles with hardly ever a whimper. I sold it in excellent mechanical condition after all those miles and bought a 99 model. Nearing 150,000 on it with nothing but stellar performance impresses me greatly. We also have a 2002 model with far less miles and we are simply in love with the quality and dependability that we never had with the 'domestics'. Our older daughter has enjoyed the same experiences with that brand as we have. My previous ones that were problematic were GM models while my neighbor when through his 'hell' with Ford products before he saw the light and went with Toyota. Oh, he just loves its quality and dependability and the freedom from the constant problems of before. But, I guess he should come on and tell his own story. Since I ventured into the more recent cars my wife and I drive we have been one happy family not to constantly have the problems we had with the 'domestics'.
I really believe part of the problem is the fact that the leaders of the labor unions are Socialists and Anti-Capitalists. They and government intervention have made it difficult for labor and other costs to be competitive with many other countries and hampers quality production at competitive prices.
I have outgrown the tendency to want to 'race' around so I'm not impressed with the higher performance of many of the domestics. I demand quality and long service life with dependability and that is exactly my experience with Nissan. To say nothing about my Mitsubishi pickup with over 202,000 miles and compression is now 93.33% of what was when I bought it new. I have enjoyed the same stellar dependability with it as I have with Nissan.
Your experience might differ from mine. That is fine with me. I need the domestics to be in demand to reduce the demand on 'imports?' so prices won't go up like a rocket.

[ January 03, 2004, 08:24 PM: Message edited by: krholm ]

 

[labman]

From something I posted to another thread: Rust is one place where America got the jump on the rest. I haven't seen another LUV in years, but there are still many 70's American trucks on the road.

 

[Amkeer]

We actually need the less informed to buy the less favorable brands to prevent a monopoly. In any case you are better dollar for dollar with a well engineered vehicle such as Toyota/Lexus, Honda and some of the other brands. Resale alone should be a indication. You can find a number of the GM, Fords, etc., for sale in your local paper. Those people wanting to unload for various reasons not limited to mechanicals issues. There will be numerous vehicles for sale of the same model. Not a good position to be in if you want to sell. Used Toyotas and Hondas are in demand and fetch top dollar!

I can't tell you how many GM, Chryslers and Fords I see driving around with the clearcoats completely peeling off! These vehicles also are driving around with cheap fasteners!

I have owned domestic and imports! I will never buy another GM!


Daily Drives:
-2003 Toyota Tacoma PreRunner XtraCab, Impulse Red, Peppy 2.7 Liter 4 Banger, Running Mobil 1 Synthetics SS 5w30.
ODO 6500 Miles.
-1995 Toyota 4-Runner, Evergreen, 3.0 V6, Running Mobil 1 Synthetic SS 10w30.
ODO 82400 Miles. (Switching to GC next)Nope sticking with M1.
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