Toyota's Recall Frees Jailed Minnesota Man

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
Someone just wanted blood regardless of whether this make sense or not.


When someone dies, I don't care what you did wrong (it could be something 100% unrelated or not of a level to contribute to the fatality), that's what's used to prove negligence so that they can hang it around your neck.

 

[mopar_monkey]

freed

 

[Vikas]

Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
What doesn't make sense is why the judge and juror will send someone with a non drunk driving accident into jail in the first place.


Someone just wanted blood regardless of whether this make sense or not.


From the story;

"He told investigators that he pumped the brakes as he exited Interstate 94 in St. Paul, Minnesota, and approached an intersection, said his new lawyer, Brent Schafer.

But Ramsey County prosecutors asserted at trial that Lee had his foot on the gas as he approached cars waiting at a red light. The car was moving at 70 to 90 mph when it struck the other vehicles. "

IT was NOT an accident. 70-90 MPH approaching a light? He got jail time for injuring/killing others.

Jail time happens all the time. (Thankfully)


So, tell me what was his motive? I challenge your assertion that "jail time happens all the time". No way red blooded senior citizen mowing down pedestrians end up in jail. Show me otherwise.

If it was not for the ethnicity of the driver and his inept lawyer, he would not have been in jail.

- Vikas

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
IT was NOT an accident. 70-90 MPH approaching a light? He got jail time for injuring/killing others.

Jail time happens all the time. (Thankfully)


Maybe those of you who've ever accidentally ran a red light or stop sign should all go to jail. It is not intentional, not drunk driving. You can ticket the heck out of him and sue him but jail doesn't make sense.

 

[Bill in Utah]

Originally Posted By: Vikas


If it was not for the ethnicity of the driver and his inept lawyer, he would not have been in jail.

- Vikas


What a comment.

And YES it happens all the time. In states that value life and the law.

Originally Posted By: PandaBear


Maybe those of you who've ever accidentally ran a red light or stop sign should all go to jail. It is not intentional, not drunk driving. You can ticket the heck out of him and sue him but jail doesn't make sense.


You forgot the part of him KILLING THREE PEOPLE.

Big difference running a stop light at 30-50 mph or not stopping at a stop sign at 25-40 mph.

But going 70-90 MPH and "accidentally" not stopping and KILLING THREE human beings mean nothing.

Your right. Maybe just a ticket...

Oh and suing someone will fix everything.

No wonder we are so screwed up....

 

[MNgopher]

The reality is the man spent several years in Jail. His lawyer was clearly inept in the intial trial. I hope and doubt that race played any role in the initial decision. If people know St. Paul and Ramsey County, there is a huge population of Hmong people (one of the largest concentrations in the country) and they are generally good people. Would he have been in Jail intially with a different lawyer? There is no answer to that question.

The man spent several years in Jail. How long is enough? While he no longer has "felon" attached to his records, he has to live with what happened and the years spent in Jail. Yes, he killed three people. He served jail time for it.

The family of the victims he hit have forgiven him as well. Isn't that enough?

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
But going 70-90 MPH and "accidentally" not stopping and KILLING THREE human beings mean nothing.


When you are going 70mph on the highway trying to exit and mistook gas as brake, and try to pump it, yeah, you can remain at 70mph - 90mph.

How fast do you drive on a highway? 30-50mph?

 

[Bill in Utah]

Originally Posted By: PandaBear


When you are going 70mph on the highway trying to exit and mistook gas as brake, and try to pump it, yeah, you can remain at 70mph - 90mph.

How fast do you drive on a highway? 30-50mph?


Wow you really did redid your original post!

I've been prob driving longer than you have been alive and more miles per year than most. How many times have I driven 90 mph? Not too often but the place NOT to is on a off ramp.

If you can not figure out the difference between a brake and a gas pedal and go up to 70-90mph and kill someone then yes, you need to be off the road so you don't do it again. (IE JAIL)

I drive 75mph on my way to work. No tickets, no accidents, no killing someone. EVER.

That is also the reason why I've never been in jail.

If you have a accident like this and kill someone, I hope you end up in jail. I've seen a lot of accidents and very few of them are. High 90 percentage are VERY preventable.

Bill

 

[mechanicx]

I'm not a lawyer but if he unintentional paniced and confused the gas pedal for the brake pedal, and that's what appears happened, then I think that is not recklessness or criminal negligence. There is no intent or foresight involved in the act. I think the person should lose their licenses and be civilly liable. He probably didn't have much money other than auto insurance. But putting him in prison wasn't going to bring the victims back. Now if someone hits and runs, I think they should throw the book at them which they usually don't.

 

[Gary Allan]

Tough situation. We had a young kid who was just driving along. Just driving along ..not speeding ..not doing anything reckless. A bee flew in his opened window, found his eye, and he lost control of the car. Understandable, right? I think it would upset most drivers, let alone a teenager with limited experience.

As fate would have it, 3 older women were walking along this semi-rural road. They died when he hit them.

They wanted to throw the book at him. Unlike this guy's family, the victims family demanded a pound of flesh. This kid was a well behaved young man by all accounts. Good grades, part time job ..ready to go to college ..etc..etc.

Common sense prevailed (imo) and he didn't get charged. Now I'd say that there would be some balance in having his life ruined when he was the instrument of others deaths, but just how would justice have been served considering the cause of the accident?

 

[Bill in Utah]

Gary different story. And I agree that he should not be charged.

That is why MOST off ramps have a MUCH lower speed (suggested) when you enter them. But a careful driver would check his brakes BEFORE he needed them as they were coming off the freeway. Then you approach the stop light at a MUCH lower speed. Slamming on the brakes at the last moment is not too smart. Slamming on the gas pedal when at the last moment doing 70-90mph? We know what happened.

We had close to the same thing happen here as the kid above. It was a bird that hit the windshield, broke it and scared the driver going the speed limit. They could not see and slammed on the brakes and while slowing went into the side of the road and hit a bicyclist and sadly that person did not survive.

Now there was some evidence that the windshield was cracked/damaged before the strike but it could not be proven how bad the damage was and if it caused the windshield to become much more damaged by the bird than if it was "perfect".

No charges were made on the driver and last I heard, no one is suing. Been 2-3 years.

Bill

Bill

 

[mechanicx]

This is a good example of what I think is not criminal negligence but an unfortunate accident. From what I know prosecutors are usually agressive to say the least even if it does not further justice or the intent of the law for that matter. And sometimes the victims family or even the public wants vengence through prison time. They seem to imagine some malice intent must exist in the responsible party for something bad to have happen. But if there is no foresight or intent shown (running a red light, speeding etc.), then it is an accident and there no good basis to feel vengeful. That's what insurance is for.

 

[mechanicx]

I don't mean to make a debate but if the standard for criminal negligence is at the level of anything short of a force of nature, animals or the wind blowing the car off course, or a proven sudden mechanical failure, I'm not so sure. At that level I think you might be getting into whether the driver would even be civilly liable let alone criminally.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
They seem to imagine some malice intent must exist in the responsible party for something bad to have happen.


This is one of the less admirable human traits that somehow feels justified in being. People ..hmmm...or rather, populations have a surplus of displaced anxiety that's just waiting for an outlet. I find such antics rather typical in a flawed sense. I also see them pacified ..generally speaking, with appeasement.

 

[Vikas]

This is being repeated for you Bill. You raised your eyebrow at my "ethnic" part but did not comment on rest of it.(Gary already provided a counter-example with the teen being NOT charged) I am repeating it again ..

===============
So, tell me what was his motive? I challenge your assertion that jail time happens all the time". No way red blooded senior citizen mowing down pedestrians end up in jail. Show me otherwise."
===============

I also recall epolk's story of defending a homeless in Florida. I have a feeling that if that was an upstanding citizen, he would not have been thrown in the jail. Class (and by extension ethnicity) plays a definite role when something out of ordinary happens in the world.

- Vikas

 

[Bill in Utah]

What is with the "Senior Citizen" and this story? (The guy let loose is 32 TODAY)

Most Senior Citizens don't end up in jail period so what is your point?

Jail time DOES happen all the time for man slaughter. Esp vehicular man slaughter times THREE.

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah

Wow you really did redid your original post!

I've been prob driving longer than you have been alive and more miles per year than most. How many times have I driven 90 mph? Not too often but the place NOT to is on a off ramp.

If you can not figure out the difference between a brake and a gas pedal and go up to 70-90mph and kill someone then yes, you need to be off the road so you don't do it again. (IE JAIL)

I drive 75mph on my way to work. No tickets, no accidents, no killing someone. EVER.

That is also the reason why I've never been in jail.

If you have a accident like this and kill someone, I hope you end up in jail. I've seen a lot of accidents and very few of them are. High 90 percentage are VERY preventable.

Bill


Right, my original post is a bit emotional so I edited them out.

I hope you'll never be a juror, because you are clearly very emotional and you are one of the people that I know that wanted blood when things hit the fan. I agree with suspended license and whatever compensation the victims' family ask for, but jail time? You seriously think that mistook brake and gas deserves a bigger punishment than drunk driving or hit and run?

Your example of the kid killing someone doesn't get charged clearly shows that you are biased in terms of man slaughter punishment. Someone brake and slow into the side hitting a biker doesn't deserve to go to jail? but someone mistook brake and gas should? You should look into your own heart and see what kind of double standard you have. If this Hmong adult and the kid were swapped but the condition of the accidents are the same, will you seriously think the same punishment (or the lack of) is deserved?

Why would he be a free man now? and the victims family think he should be out of jail? Because people realize it is an unjust punishment.

 

[John_Corey]

Hi Panda Bear,

If a driver is so blatantly incompetent that he mixes up accelerator and brake, then he is negligent as soon as he gets behind the wheel of a vehicle.

An accelerator pedal and brake are in a different location, and muscle memory in a functional person makes it impossible to mix up the two pedals. Muscle memory is acquired rapidly by going though the same motions repeatedly. Muscle memory is what lets an old person ride a bike after after 50 years of not ever touching a bike. A person would have to have some impairment, in order for muscle memory to not work! That impairment could be brought on spontaneously, for example by a cerebral event like a stroke, or it could happen due to a disease that affects motor skills, for example Alzheimer's or Parkinson disease.

In a healthy person with normal motor and coordination skills, mixing up accelerator and brake pedal is pretty much impossible also, because even if it happens, the lack of resistance on an accelerator will alert the operator of his or her mistake. Some may say that in the heat of the moment a person may not think clearly and have no time to react appropriately. However, a driver simply must be competent and able to operate his or her vehicle safely at all times, including fringe events. Driver training does normally not include training that deals with stopping a runaway vehicle, because common sense dictates what to do in such a case-at least if common sense is present.

An accident caused by a driver's lack of skill is caused by negligence as much as an accident caused by a drunk driver. The difference is that the drunk driver deliberately gets behind the wheel, although he may not be thinking clearly at the time, while the driver who lacks driving skills may be unaware of his potentially lethal shortcomings.

Accidents will always happen, but they are no created equally. The human element will always be the most significant contributor. The question is, at what point does negligence begin? What's the minimum set of skills required for operating a vehicle? Not mixing up accelerator and brake is about as essential a skill as it gets.

Cheers,
-J


Originally Posted By: PandaBear
You seriously think that mistook brake and gas deserves a bigger punishment than drunk driving or hit and run?

 

[John_Corey]

Hi all,

I just remembered something. I sometimes notice drivers taking their foot off the accelerator, especially while using the cruise control. This is of course a big No. One has to always have the foot on a pedal, whether it's the accelerator or the brake. In many places you will fail a driving test when you plant your foot on the floor while the car is in motion. When I use cruise control, I always keep my foot on the gas pedal. When I lift my foot of the gas pedal, at the end of its travel, the gas pedal and brake pedal line up and I can simply swivel my foot on my heel and slide over to the brake pedal. This is the proper procedure.

Cheers,
-J

 

[Vikas]

I am saying lots of senior citizens have mowed down pedestrians but they are not jailed.