Rickey, Get off the short bus. They redesigned the PCV valve and replaced or rebuilt the engines,and shortened the OCI solveing the problem.These engines are no longer in product so again no problem. THe warranty is something like 8-10 years so if the problem should ever return guess what rebuild the engine or replace. You realise that Chrysler,Audi,Mercedes,Toyota and many other companies have had problems with sludgeing!
Toyota - The recall KING?
- Thread starter buster
- Start date
- Status
JHZR2,
I can show you more MB gas engines emitting blue smoke at less than 100,000 miles as compared to Honda, the worst junk they made was the 190E 2.3 16V, engine would blow at around 80,000 miles, my 500,000+ miles Accord V6 still has no oil consumption. By the way, my 300D brand new went through two master cylinder failures, also my friend's 240D needed valve guide replacement in under 50,000 miles, compared to that my other friend's beaten second hand Toyota 4 cylinder truck had over 200,000 miles on clock and no oil consumption. You just have your brains washed with the myth of MB and other German brands, I can show you far more registered and running old Japanese brands than say German, Subarus, Nissans, Honda as well as Toyota with high mileage running around in US. Guess you missed the BBC/Jeremy Clarkson torture test of a second hand Toyota HiLux, you would think otherwise, you should also be aware that in remote areas where there is no chance of maintenance, Toyota trucks and Land Cruisers rule, not G Wagen so you know which one is more reliable.
I can show you more MB gas engines emitting blue smoke at less than 100,000 miles as compared to Honda, the worst junk they made was the 190E 2.3 16V, engine would blow at around 80,000 miles, my 500,000+ miles Accord V6 still has no oil consumption. By the way, my 300D brand new went through two master cylinder failures, also my friend's 240D needed valve guide replacement in under 50,000 miles, compared to that my other friend's beaten second hand Toyota 4 cylinder truck had over 200,000 miles on clock and no oil consumption. You just have your brains washed with the myth of MB and other German brands, I can show you far more registered and running old Japanese brands than say German, Subarus, Nissans, Honda as well as Toyota with high mileage running around in US. Guess you missed the BBC/Jeremy Clarkson torture test of a second hand Toyota HiLux, you would think otherwise, you should also be aware that in remote areas where there is no chance of maintenance, Toyota trucks and Land Cruisers rule, not G Wagen so you know which one is more reliable.
Well the favorite car I have ever owned is made in the USA, but the engine was made in Japan. The car was assembled in Normal, IL. The company was a merger of Dodge and Mitsubishi; Diamond Star Motors. My Eagle Talon AWD Turbo.
I have replaced the engine and tranny both lol. But I still like it alot. Well when I bought it it had 99K and only oil changes at 5K with cheap dino, 10W40 is what the previous used.
So wether you prefer American, Japanese, German, Korean or ________ whatever; the reasons we have are not all the same. I mean sometimes it's logical like lowest running cost and fewer reported problems within the first few years of ownership (Toyota, Honda), or the thrill of a turbo kicking in and flying past that BMW at the stop light (My Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX/Talon).
Like what you like don't get upset if somebody wants to like something else then you.
And yeah nobody is perfect; Toyota, Ford, GM or whoever.
On the plus side; american cars can be purchased very cheaply, like late model tauruses, etc.. And the cost of ownership is alot closer between all the makes when you are in the 80K+ mile range IMHO. It's only the first few years off the assembly line that Toyota and Honda really shine in reliabilty (statisitcally, compared to others), correct me if I am wrong here, please.
Personally I wouldn't want to have to own any brand new car, because whoever owns it first has to deal with "getting the bugs worked out", getting the dealer to warranty stuff when it breaks.
Chances are if you buy a used car with high miles where everything is pretty good (tranny, engine, etc), then it means they got a good one from the factory, or it's been replaced
I have replaced the engine and tranny both lol. But I still like it alot. Well when I bought it it had 99K and only oil changes at 5K with cheap dino, 10W40 is what the previous used.
So wether you prefer American, Japanese, German, Korean or ________ whatever; the reasons we have are not all the same. I mean sometimes it's logical like lowest running cost and fewer reported problems within the first few years of ownership (Toyota, Honda), or the thrill of a turbo kicking in and flying past that BMW at the stop light (My Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX/Talon).
Like what you like don't get upset if somebody wants to like something else then you.
And yeah nobody is perfect; Toyota, Ford, GM or whoever.
On the plus side; american cars can be purchased very cheaply, like late model tauruses, etc.. And the cost of ownership is alot closer between all the makes when you are in the 80K+ mile range IMHO. It's only the first few years off the assembly line that Toyota and Honda really shine in reliabilty (statisitcally, compared to others), correct me if I am wrong here, please.
Personally I wouldn't want to have to own any brand new car, because whoever owns it first has to deal with "getting the bugs worked out", getting the dealer to warranty stuff when it breaks.
Chances are if you buy a used car with high miles where everything is pretty good (tranny, engine, etc), then it means they got a good one from the factory, or it's been replaced
Go back to sleep.
Shortening the OCI is a band-aid fix. So is using synthetic. If the PCV valve is actually part of the problem, why did they use such a bad design? PCV systems are not rocket science. Another question is, if the PCV valve and/or it's associated plumbing is part of the problem, why didn't/don't they just recall these vehicles and put new PCV valves and/or their associated plumbing into them?
Unless you own one. Then it is a problem.
Great, and what happens when it sludges up in year 11? Guess the lifetime of a vehicle is only supposed to be 10 years so it doesn't matter anyway, does it?
EDIT: The warranty is 8 years, not 10.
You don't say...that must be why I mentioned the Audi 1.8T sludger with it's amazing 4-quart sump!
If anyone rides the short bus around here, it's people that don't bother to read the whole post.
Last edited:
The math was pretty simple for me and I have owned Chevys, Buicks and Fords. I simply DO NOT visit the Service Dept. at Toyota like I did with the domestics. Re-calls?...how about the millions of 3.8L GMs out there with leaky manifold gaskets that were NEVER addressed, just swept under the rug. The few proplems that Toyota has have been dealt with up front and I subscribe that this is management-driven and I can't ever see myself shelling out my hard earned money for anything but a Toyota.
JHZR2
Staff member
Please don't turn this into a ________ match. I do not deny that honda and toyota make great vehicles... out 94 previa is one of them, and our 94 integra is another... though Id give the quality to our toyota product over our honda product.
That said, I'm not 'brainwashed' by anything. I know the history and operating consistency of my 300D, have every single reciept from mile 0 onward, and know what a great car it has been. And, I know a number of people (not 'internet friends' but real people) who share my experiences.
I never made any comment regarding gasoline engines made my any Euro manufacturer... though my M42 in my E30 BMW uses no oil at all, and the engine in my 2004 saab is top-notch. That said, I dont expect either of them to last like the diesel engine in my w123.
Two master cylinder failures within short time indicates something wrong. Remember the phrase, 'lightning doesn't strike in the same place twice'??? There was another underlying issue. And, as for the 240D, lets not forget the way soot loads in those engines, all it takes is a bit of slipshort maintenance, and problems certainly can begin... I wonder how many oil changes were done (with diesel spec oil), in those 50k miles. Im not defending MB, per se., but lets not overlook the issues that exist with Asian manufactured cars out of the box... anomalies exist for all. My father's toyota corolla was a good example of a ________ car that shouldnt have been.
Please do not convince yourself that because there are more registered japanese makes with high mileage, that they are inherently better. You must normalize those numbers to the original number put into service in the USA. Your figures may shift at that point, and certainly will converge significantly.
I'm sure that your accord v6 is a great car. But lets not forget that there is nothing sacred in Honda or Toyota vehicles... I can point you to more than a few domestic gas-engine cars that have similar mileages and run excellently too.
So, what was your driving profile during the time that you acquired 500k miles on your honda??? What oil was used?
JMH
Last edited:
Well in that same breath, there is nothing invincible and legendary about MB either, the 240D was immaculately maintained by MB dealers in Elizabeth NJ, the master cylinder issue was a MB technical fault which they denied, after the second failure, they put a modded cylinder and it went fine. Every post you make here, the first chance you get to compare the MB to Japanese vehicles, you do so with a vendetta toward Japanese brands, specially the likes of Toyota and Honda, now I am not saying Toyota and Honda are the best, but neither is your MB, as a matter of fact, all the surveys done till today by various sources indicate otherwise, the W123 chassis will always remain my favorite from Benz stable, but there were quality issues with them in engine and trim department but they did have solid suspensions. I can show you that plenty of my friends in NY suffered from unreliable Audis, BMWs and MB, as a matter of fact, one had a Accord and a BMW 6 series bought during same period, guess what, the Accord with severe abuse outlasted the BMW which spent most of its time in shop.
Honda Accord V6 was and still is on diet of Mobil-I 15W-50 summers and 10W-30 winters, its also hopped up with HRC cam, exhaust, header and suspension parts along with re-programmed ECU. Car driven on tracks, daily drive to college and work in NYC traffic, also plenty of cross country and upstate trips. I have 6 speeding tickets in my 17 year lifetime in NY so that tells you I have a lead foot.
Honda Accord V6 was and still is on diet of Mobil-I 15W-50 summers and 10W-30 winters, its also hopped up with HRC cam, exhaust, header and suspension parts along with re-programmed ECU. Car driven on tracks, daily drive to college and work in NYC traffic, also plenty of cross country and upstate trips. I have 6 speeding tickets in my 17 year lifetime in NY so that tells you I have a lead foot.
JHZR2
Staff member
I can assure you that I have no vendetta towards Japanese brands. We have a high mileage toyota product and a high mileage acura product, and though the acura product does not, in my opinion, have the best materials selection engineering-wise, they have both been bulletproof, and excellent vehicles. We also have a mitsubishi 3000GT VR-4, which now has over 100k miles on it and runs like a top.
If I had some issue with Japanese vehicles, would we own those? Likely not. And, Ill be the first to say how excellent those vehicles have been. Though Ill also be the first to state that the rubber and plastic materials on our acura are sub-par, and that my father's toyota corolla was a disapointment. Then again, Ill also say that the life of our 96 E300D's air conditioning compressor is a disapointment, failing at only 10 years and 180k miles of use.
The reality is this, a w123 MB is the epitome of mechanical simplicity and reliability, especially when set up with mechanical windows and climate controls (though those systems both are 100% original and work 100% fine on mine). Are there other cars that can be as long lived if not moreso, even with less PM? Ill guess so. Are there cars that, given the addition of electronic controls are cleaner and more powerful for a given displacement/output? sure. But if looking for a simple, reliable, low lifecycle cost vehicle that has excellent engineering and design for the long-run, that car is it. Show me anything that Honda engineered in the mid 1970s that is up to that level of design, safety, etc.
And given your disclosure of your driving profile, let's admit that 500k from your vehicle is an anolmaly... especially if you desire to claim that the thousands of 200k+ mile w123 diesels are anaomalies, because based upon your experiences, their systems should have all been broken and the cars would have to be on their third engines by now.
I wisht I would have access to the figures... Id be willing to be that in a normalized calculation, there are more 500K+ w123 cars on the road than there are 500k accords or camrys or any other mainstream vehicles.
Or maybe Im just totally wrong... mercedes-benz vehicles are just total POS. Anyone buying anything but a Honda or Toyota is an idiot, because you have to be stupid to think that you could get over 100k miles from a non-honda or non-toyota vehicle... After all, EVERY car from EVERY OTHER manufacturer is guaranteed to have manufacturing defects right off the line, right? Why even buy them? You can more or less drive them straight-line tothe junkyard and theyll be ready to be scrapped when the car gets there. Right???
JMH
If I had some issue with Japanese vehicles, would we own those? Likely not. And, Ill be the first to say how excellent those vehicles have been. Though Ill also be the first to state that the rubber and plastic materials on our acura are sub-par, and that my father's toyota corolla was a disapointment. Then again, Ill also say that the life of our 96 E300D's air conditioning compressor is a disapointment, failing at only 10 years and 180k miles of use.
The reality is this, a w123 MB is the epitome of mechanical simplicity and reliability, especially when set up with mechanical windows and climate controls (though those systems both are 100% original and work 100% fine on mine). Are there other cars that can be as long lived if not moreso, even with less PM? Ill guess so. Are there cars that, given the addition of electronic controls are cleaner and more powerful for a given displacement/output? sure. But if looking for a simple, reliable, low lifecycle cost vehicle that has excellent engineering and design for the long-run, that car is it. Show me anything that Honda engineered in the mid 1970s that is up to that level of design, safety, etc.
And given your disclosure of your driving profile, let's admit that 500k from your vehicle is an anolmaly... especially if you desire to claim that the thousands of 200k+ mile w123 diesels are anaomalies, because based upon your experiences, their systems should have all been broken and the cars would have to be on their third engines by now.
I wisht I would have access to the figures... Id be willing to be that in a normalized calculation, there are more 500K+ w123 cars on the road than there are 500k accords or camrys or any other mainstream vehicles.
Or maybe Im just totally wrong... mercedes-benz vehicles are just total POS. Anyone buying anything but a Honda or Toyota is an idiot, because you have to be stupid to think that you could get over 100k miles from a non-honda or non-toyota vehicle... After all, EVERY car from EVERY OTHER manufacturer is guaranteed to have manufacturing defects right off the line, right? Why even buy them? You can more or less drive them straight-line tothe junkyard and theyll be ready to be scrapped when the car gets there. Right???
JMH
Last edited:
If we were to just compare drivetrains, I think Honda/Toyota are still in a league of their own in terms of reliability and longevity. I know more people that have engines from both of these auto makers that have well over 300k miles on them. IMHO>
brianl703, You show me a better fix then what Toyota has offeed. GM does not warranty their coolant leaking intake manifolds or gaskets for 8-10 year on any of the models or engines. They do not warranty their warping brake rotors past 12,000 miles.Outside of California their awful central port injection system and fuel pump was only covered for 36,000 miles. In California the C.A.R.B. made them warranty this sytem and the fuel pump for 300,000 miles.I do not think Audi's 1.8 has an 8-10 year warranty fix. I do not think that DC's 2.7 has that much standing behind it either!
Once the PCV has been replaced and the OCI has been changed and the engine rebuilt or replaced the sludge should not return. It also should not return if a quality synthetic is used. We have seen plenty of these engines on this site with no apparent sludge or signs of sludgeing. One way that most European companies get around these issues is by haveing very specific oil requirments.
Heat is a major issue in the 2.7 and in the Toyota 3.0. The DC 2.7 has a massive catalytic converter about an inch from the timeing cover heat soaking the oil. The Toyota 3.0 had excessive head temps that was cooking the oil after shut down in the head and cam shim area's.The gear drive was also shearing the snot out of the sheap dino 5W30 that was recomended by the owners manual.
As companies try tio push up power densities and push down emissions we will see more of this!
I did read the whole post.
Once the PCV has been replaced and the OCI has been changed and the engine rebuilt or replaced the sludge should not return. It also should not return if a quality synthetic is used. We have seen plenty of these engines on this site with no apparent sludge or signs of sludgeing. One way that most European companies get around these issues is by haveing very specific oil requirments.
Heat is a major issue in the 2.7 and in the Toyota 3.0. The DC 2.7 has a massive catalytic converter about an inch from the timeing cover heat soaking the oil. The Toyota 3.0 had excessive head temps that was cooking the oil after shut down in the head and cam shim area's.The gear drive was also shearing the snot out of the sheap dino 5W30 that was recomended by the owners manual.
As companies try tio push up power densities and push down emissions we will see more of this!
I did read the whole post.
How about a fix that actually addresses the problem?
This is a bit like Ford with the TFI-IV problem. The best they could offer is a free TFI-IV replacement after they got sued.
That's nice, but that doesn't fix the root cause of the problem.
Well, I guess in the case of Toyota, the replacement engine might be redesigned so it doesn't sludge...seems a drastic solution to a problem that could've been held off...
I'll tell you straight up why I think Ford never offered a real fix: They didn't want to admit that putting the TFI-IV module on the distributor was a bad idea and caused it to overheat. If they did, they could have been forced to recall every single vehicle with a TFI-IV and relocate it, and they could've been held liable for any accident remotely related to an engine stall with a TFI-IV on it.
Bottom line: What can I tell my friend who has a 1999 Toyota Sienna minivan besides "use short OCIs to prevent sludging"?
This is a bit like Ford with the TFI-IV problem. The best they could offer is a free TFI-IV replacement after they got sued.
That's nice, but that doesn't fix the root cause of the problem.
Well, I guess in the case of Toyota, the replacement engine might be redesigned so it doesn't sludge...seems a drastic solution to a problem that could've been held off...
I'll tell you straight up why I think Ford never offered a real fix: They didn't want to admit that putting the TFI-IV module on the distributor was a bad idea and caused it to overheat. If they did, they could have been forced to recall every single vehicle with a TFI-IV and relocate it, and they could've been held liable for any accident remotely related to an engine stall with a TFI-IV on it.
Bottom line: What can I tell my friend who has a 1999 Toyota Sienna minivan besides "use short OCIs to prevent sludging"?
Last edited:
He'd like to deal. How? What is the problem that causes sludging?
Someone knows for sure, and they aren't saying.
Someone knows for sure, and they aren't saying.
Based on the limited reading I've done on the issue (which was a while ago) there isn't one problem per se, rather a chain that contribute to it. Poor PCV design, poor cyl head design, small sump capacities, short trips, confined engine compartment in the van, improper octane rating and yes, owner neglect. Factor in enough of them and you have a sludger.
Unfortunately, there isn't really much that CAN be done by the owner.
One thing that an owner can do is use Synth oil, because overheating the oil in the head seems to be the main problem in this particular Toyota sludge case. M1 Synth, for example, says it will withstand temps up to 400F.
I have a '97 Camry 4-Cyl that I bought new. This is one of the sludge engines, but not a bad as the V6. I used Pennzoil 10W-30 Conventional oil for 55K miles, with OCI every 3 months (~2500 miles) in mainly in-town driving. I did fine with it, and verified that it had no sludge after 55K miles, but I think that it was on the verge of sludging. I always change the oil myself in this car, and that Conventional oil was looking beat-up (casual, unscientific observation) in the summer, looked better in the winter here in TN. After joining BITOG in 2004, I switched to M1 5W-30 and did several 3 month OCIs to purge dirt. Now, on this car, I do a 1 year OCI with M1 5W-30 EP and the oil stays amber the whole year. About 1 year ago I pulled the valve cover and observed that everyting was very clean.
I am not a mechanic, but have read about Toyota's sludge problem in various places over the years. The overall consensus and my experience that the Synth oil is probably be best thing for an owner to do, followed by ensuring that the PCV system is clean and fully functional.
I have a '97 Camry 4-Cyl that I bought new. This is one of the sludge engines, but not a bad as the V6. I used Pennzoil 10W-30 Conventional oil for 55K miles, with OCI every 3 months (~2500 miles) in mainly in-town driving. I did fine with it, and verified that it had no sludge after 55K miles, but I think that it was on the verge of sludging. I always change the oil myself in this car, and that Conventional oil was looking beat-up (casual, unscientific observation) in the summer, looked better in the winter here in TN. After joining BITOG in 2004, I switched to M1 5W-30 and did several 3 month OCIs to purge dirt. Now, on this car, I do a 1 year OCI with M1 5W-30 EP and the oil stays amber the whole year. About 1 year ago I pulled the valve cover and observed that everyting was very clean.
I am not a mechanic, but have read about Toyota's sludge problem in various places over the years. The overall consensus and my experience that the Synth oil is probably be best thing for an owner to do, followed by ensuring that the PCV system is clean and fully functional.
How about adding an oil cooler?
Any one that thinks Toyota is "king of the recalls"
is obviously out of touch with reality.
is obviously out of touch with reality.
brianl703, I wondered about an oil cooler myself, and I found that older-generation Camrys came standard with an oil cooler that fit in the area of the oil filter on the 4-Cyl. I don't know about the V6. I considered researching an aftermarket add-on, but then decided to simply try Synth oil first. For what it's worth, in the many articles I have read about Toyota's sludging issue, nobody mentioned an oil cooler, or changing to a larger oil-pan with cooling fins, etc, as a fix for these engines. I don't know, but I suspect that the engine design is such that it will carefully achieve a certain head temp for emission control, and overheat the oil in the head regardless of these extra measures. Toyota had a bad design, and it will be hard for an owner to fix it. A Toyota mechanic told me that Toyota knew about the problem fairly early on and tried various little changes in the '97 - '01 models, but even they were unsuccessful.
Toyota came out with a new series of engines in 2002, which I heard reduced or eliminated the sludge problems in Camrys and Siennas, but news about those later models have been off of my radar for the most part.
The '97 Camry was my first Toyota, but this sludge issue, and other issues with the '97 model year Camry (obvious cost-reduction choices, since fixed) made me disappointed in Toyota, and I still am! I still do not consider them as I purchase new cars.
Toyota came out with a new series of engines in 2002, which I heard reduced or eliminated the sludge problems in Camrys and Siennas, but news about those later models have been off of my radar for the most part.
The '97 Camry was my first Toyota, but this sludge issue, and other issues with the '97 model year Camry (obvious cost-reduction choices, since fixed) made me disappointed in Toyota, and I still am! I still do not consider them as I purchase new cars.
- Status
Similar threads
