Toyota 0W20 Ford V10?

[MarkStock]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint

The point is the 20 grade oil isn't the Holy Grail you make it out to be


I really think you have imagined me to have this position

If it was the holy grail, would I run 30 weight in my ford because I have it in hand?

If it was the holy grail why didn't I experiment with it in my 30 weight Lexus?

I am happy to run what the spec calls for. Because of concern over thin oils, I have done and continue to do due diligence in case engineers get it wrong

I haven't found any facts to tell me what is spec'd is wrong for my applications

I've said all this before

Lastly I believe that many here take the wrong approach (and in some cases no approach) to establishing whether engineers got it wrong. It's easy to make suppositions but without more facts and referencing engineering data, people on both sides of the argument are not in a position to make definitive conclusions

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: donnyj08
The early ecoboost was originally spec'd 5w20 then was changed to 5w30. and the test was in the first year of the ecoboost which would have been a 5w20 spec'd engine and used Motorcraft 5w20 syn-blend for the torture test, because that was factory fill.


The SHO EcoBoost was originally spec'd for 5W-20 while the F150 EB has always been 5w30, AFAIK.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: MarkStock

to the dark side Shannow!


Funny--exactly what I was thinking! quite the helpful answer...

It specs a 5W20 oil, and the Motorcraft spec has an hths of 2.78--however, there's some headroom in there since it doesn't account for shear, nor does it spec a synthetic oil. So, I wouldn't worry about using a shear-resistance 20W with hths in the 2.6 range. Also, if you look at the owner's manual (at least in my Ford), it "requires an API-rated 20W oil", and "recommends" an oil meeting Ford's spec.

The Motorcraft 5W20 always seems to shear a bit in use, so at the end of the day the Toyota oil will probably end up with similar hths.

JOD I'm surprised to hear that the Ford Motorcraft 5W-20 had a HTHSV as high as 2.78cP. That being the case, the Toyota 0W-20 is of course a much lighter oil, not just because of it's lower 2.6cP HTHSV but also it's much higher 216 VI which does affect the operational viscosity at normal operating temp's as well.
Assuming the OP doesn't have an oil pressure gauge (he could use the Toyota oil straight if he did) I still wouldn't hesitate
to use up the Toyota oil but I would add a quart of something heavier like Mobil 1 0W-40 to bring the HTHSV up to at least the level of the spec' oil.
It's not likely necessary for the reasons you've mentioned but I would err on the side of caution.

 

[rvt]

It has a Ford idiot gauge, 6 or 8 PSI triggers the gauge to 2/3 scale. About the only useful info from the gauge is that there is 6 PSI oil pressure. I could look up the exact number.

Would knowing that at idle be sufficient?

What would be the advantages of a blend vs. the lightest suitable product-perhaps one of the other brand 0W20s?

 

[antiqueshell]

I too don't understand some here who want to try and make a
5w-20 or(0-w20) the answer to any vehicle that requires motor oil.

If the manufacturer specs it during the warranty period use it to protect your coverage, after that I'm sure anything REASONABLE will be perfect and perhaps even BETTER for the long term life of the engine under various operating conditions.

I definitely believe that when turbos are used (especially in small displacement engines) that a slightly higher viscosity oil is preferred. Even the major manufacturers agree with this.

 

[rvt]

But in this case we're dealing with a relatively low specific output V10 w/ no turbo. I've seen enough longevity reports on these engines using 20 weight oil to be convinced it will do fine even in heavy duty application such as motorhome. And specific to my case, I'll be lucky to run up a 100K miles on it.

 

[donnyj08]

Originally Posted By: Trav
This is from the V6 engine program manager.
Could you please provide the link to where you read that.
This is from a Q&A with Jim Mazucho on that very test.
Quote:

2:23 Comment From Natasha
Saturday, 2:23 PM

What type of oil did you use and how often was it changed?

Natasha - Motorcraft 5W30 and oil change intervals every 10,000 miles


Trav, perhaps i have thought wrong, i have no intention to argue about it. I know 5w30 works just fine in modular fords, especially 2v engines. I however, believe if the OP V10 is a newer 3v unit it is in his best interest to continue using a 20wt oil because of the oil pressure operated timing chain tensioners and cam phasers. I only say this because ive seen the insides of many 04 and never 3v modulars because of timing chain issues as a result of using oil that is too thick for too long. The head design in those engines especially the 3v is very prone to coking, and a higher quality 5w20 seems to keep them cleaner than the typical bulk 10w30's. This is just my opinion from being around them very often in my uncles shop, as well as once owning a 5.4l that was previously neglected and used bulk oil at longer than do-able OCI's.

 

[antiqueshell]

That has more to do with the detergent additives than the oil weight.

 

[[email protected]]

If you arent going to use that naughty poisonous Toyota 0w-20, Ill gladly take it off your hands

Wouldnt want you to risk it, ya know...hehe

 

[Trav]

No matter. Many thousands of modulars are running around with 40w all over the world, 40w has zero negative effects on cam phasers or timing chain tensioner.
BTW
Quote:
have 24' Class C motorhome with Ford V10 two valve

 

[donnyj08]

Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
That has more to do with the detergent additives than the oil weight.


Clearly it does, and also the fact that ford recommends a semi-synthetic, and most 5w20 oils from what i understand seem to have a little better basestock and higher falshpoint because of that than the majority of the cheap conventional 10w30 bulk oils. I believe this engine design is partly at fault here, but at the same time i see no excuse not to use the oil that is recommended. If ford recommends a semi-synthetic 5w20 i suppose they have a reason for that, and its not 100% Cafe oriented as some think. its also cold weather and fast startup lubrication which is critical. I however, am not a 100% supporter of super light 0w20's nor a supporter of very thick oils. i believe a healthy balance is good. if ford specs a 5w20 with a 2.78 HTHSV like someone stated earlier, i think it would be beneficial to find and oil that is as close to that spec as possible, and light on the startup. I suppose i have a lot of faith in the manufacture as i own 3 modular ford trucks 2 have over 200k and one almost 200k and all have ran whats been recommended. when ford put out the TSB to switch to 5w20 i switched, and the trucks are still running, running great and using minimal oil. the 97 was switched from 5w30 to 5w20 in 2001 at 35k miles, today it has 287k so obviously the engineers at ford were positive 5w20 would protect just as well as 5w30, as it has been and continues to do so.

 

[rvt]

Originally Posted By: [email protected]
If you arent going to use that naughty poisonous Toyota 0w-20, Ill gladly take it off your hands

Wouldnt want you to risk it, ya know...hehe


Nah haha it can always go in the Camry. And worse case I can mix it with quart 0W40 and use it in the V10.

Am I right, the bottom line is HTHS of 2.6 (Toyota) vs. 2.8 for typical 20 weight as recommended by Ford? Would this first present problem as a bearing issue? Low speed high load? High speed high load? What is the shear stability of typical dino (or blend) 5W20? Would it shear into the 2.6 range anyway?

I have no doubt 30 and 40 weights do just fine in the engine. However I've read numerous accounts of 200K, 300K longevity with these engines running 20 wt. even under heavily loaded conditions in high temperatures. I have no expectation of running anywhere near 150K miles on this engine, I don't use it enough for that.

 

[donnyj08]

Originally Posted By: rvt
Originally Posted By: [email protected]
If you arent going to use that naughty poisonous Toyota 0w-20, Ill gladly take it off your hands

Wouldnt want you to risk it, ya know...hehe


Nah haha it can always go in the Camry. And worse case I can mix it with quart 0W40 and use it in the V10.

Am I right, the bottom line is HTHS of 2.6 (Toyota) vs. 2.8 for typical 20 weight as recommended by Ford? Would this first present problem as a bearing issue? Low speed high load? High speed high load? What is the shear stability of typical dino (or blend) 5W20? Would it shear into the 2.6 range anyway?

I have no doubt 30 and 40 weights do just fine in the engine. However I've read numerous accounts of 200K, 300K longevity with these engines running 20 wt. even under heavily loaded conditions in high temperatures. I have no expectation of running anywhere near 150K miles on this engine, I don't use it enough for that.


2.6 is Min for a 20wt and 2.9 is the min for a 30wt so anything 2.55-2.84 is technically in the range for the 20wt i believe, im sure someone who knows 100% for sure will chime in.

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: rvt

Am I right, the bottom line is HTHS of 2.6 (Toyota) vs. 2.8 for typical 20 weight as recommended by Ford? Would this first present problem as a bearing issue? Low speed high load? High speed high load? What is the shear stability of typical dino (or blend) 5W20? Would it shear into the 2.6 range anyway?



The older Ford spec on the V-10 (WSS-m2c153-H) was actually updated to WSS-M2C930-A, for which the hths spec was lowered to 2.6 ( PDF LINK ) . That's actually the spec in your '09 owner's manual. So, with an API SM or SN oil I wouldn't worry. Given all you've said, I'd probably just stick with the one oil, and Toyota 0W20 seems like a great choice.

Sorry your thread got caught in the crossfire of nonsensical comments, and happy trails in the motorhome!

 

[Shannow]

Does this resource help ?

 

[rvt]

Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: rvt

Am I right, the bottom line is HTHS of 2.6 (Toyota) vs. 2.8 for typical 20 weight as recommended by Ford? Would this first present problem as a bearing issue? Low speed high load? High speed high load? What is the shear stability of typical dino (or blend) 5W20? Would it shear into the 2.6 range anyway?



The older Ford spec on the V-10 (WSS-m2c153-H) was actually updated to WSS-M2C930-A, for which the hths spec was lowered to 2.6 ( PDF LINK ) . That's actually the spec in your '09 owner's manual. So, with an API SM or SN oil I wouldn't worry. Given all you've said, I'd probably just stick with the one oil, and Toyota 0W20 seems like a great choice.

Sorry your thread got caught in the crossfire of nonsensical comments, and happy trails in the motorhome!


Thanks, the link clearly spells out 2.6 HTHS spec for new oil. It appears the Toyota oil meets the Ford spec, at least for that parameter (which is the one I'm most concerned about).

 

[il_signore97]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Does this resource help ?

Priceless...

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: Trav
No matter. Many thousands of modulars are running around with 40w all over the world, 40w has zero negative effects on cam phasers or timing chain tensioner.
BTW
Quote:
have 24' Class C motorhome with Ford V10 two valve

I used 40 grades in my mustang for 100000kms and my cam lobes looked like new. Mind you the car never saw winter so sub 0 starts were non existent. So yes thicker grades do just fine in ford mod motors. But those engines seem to be as durable as the legendary 5.0,5.8 they replaced and seem to do fine on anything from 0w-20 to 15w40.
If the engine was going to see really high oil temps and serious rpms for sustained intervals a heavier oil may be of some benefit however if the engine is driven normally and maintains low rpms for the most part I have no doubt the toyota oil will more than suffice.
That oil is said to be one of the best 20 grades available on the market. Just use it,your engine won't know the difference

 

[Trav]

BITOG is a worldwide forum with members from all over the world yet the American members (not all) for the most part seem to be oblivious to this potentially valuable resource.

By seeing what these other countries are running for oil and the conditions they are used in can be a huge help in determining what may be optimal.

A friend of mine from the middle east has a modular and its spec for 5w40. If one looks past regulations and CAFE its more than possible that this is the optimal viscosity for these engines driven in hot climates and not just an oil that will work.
The US south west has similar conditions.

This one size fits all with 20w from Death Valley to the upper regions of Alaska don't make sense to me at all.

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: Trav
BITOG is a worldwide forum with members from all over the world yet the American members (not all) for the most part seem to be oblivious to this potentially valuable resource.



Well, I'm certainly not "obvious" to it, I just think it's relevant--and I think those recommendations are part of their own set of limitations. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

BTW, this motorhome isn't subject to CAFE regulations, so I'm not sure why the regs would be CAFE-driven for it.