Toyota 0W20 Ford V10?

[martinq]

Originally Posted By: rvt
Thanks for the varied responses. The engine spec is for 5W20. The engine has an oil to water heat exchanger (oil cooler) mounted above the oil filter. Most of the mileage of the motorhome is run up by trips at least 50 miles. However it does see quite a few short trips-15 minute to half hour. It sees some hot summer temperatures. It gets about 6000 miles per year of use.

0w20 is your best option. Done deal then, you're very welcome.

 

[Trav]

Quote:
BTW, this motorhome isn't subject to CAFE regulations, so I'm not sure why the regs would be CAFE-driven for it.

I never said it was but i think Ford is blanketing their oil choice between 2 oils, turbo and non turbo.

I don't know i guess what i'm thinking is if Ford spec'd different viscosities in modulars used in different vehicles that may cause customers to question the validity of the choice in their vehicle.
Confusion I'm sure they would prefer to avoid.
On the other hand even if every motor home engine blew (i know they don't, its just a hypothetical) how much of a percentage would that be in the grand scheme of things .0x of 1%?

Dollar wise it would be insignificant and probably less trouble than dealing with the questions IMHO.

Don't get me wrong i am not saying it cant run on 20w oil the obviously can. I am just saying there may or may not be something more optimal for the engine in those conditions.

 

[Trav]

Quote:
0w20 is your best option. Done deal then, you're very welcome.

If the default response to every viscosity question is "run whats in the owners manual" then there is no point in BITOG is there?
There is nothing wrong with thinking outside the box and finding an oil that matches the conditions the engine will operate under.

If the OP chooses to run 20w thats his business, i have no problems with that. At least he knows the different points of view and makes his own decision.

Up in northern Alaska do i want to run 40 or 50w oil? No
In the desert or hot climate do i want to run 20w? No

 

[martinq]

Originally Posted By: Trav
If the default response to every viscosity question is "run whats in the owners manual" then there is no point in BITOG is there?

What you've said doesn't apply here, re-read the first post. rvt asked a questions and I posted an answer.

Originally Posted By: Trav
There is nothing wrong with thinking outside the box and finding an oil that matches the conditions the engine will operate under.

If the OP chooses to run 20w thats his business, i have no problems with that. At least he knows the different points of view and makes his own decision.

Up in northern Alaska do i want to run 40 or 50w oil? No
In the desert or hot climate do i want to run 20w? No

I certainly seems that you 'have a problem with that' or you wouldn't keep posting. You also seem to have difficulty reading the information that rvt has posted. I suggest you take a time-out and re-read it.

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: Trav

I don't know i guess what i'm thinking is if Ford spec'd different viscosities in modulars used in different vehicles that may cause customers to question the validity of the choice in their vehicle.
Confusion I'm sure they would prefer to avoid.
On the other hand even if every motor home engine blew (i know they don't, its just a hypothetical) how much of a percentage would that be in the grand scheme of things .0x of 1%?

Dollar wise it would be insignificant and probably less trouble than dealing with the questions IMHO.


IMHO, that's a pretty bold statement! Sure, they don't sell a lot of motorhomes, but it would be an easy sale to consumers to say "vehicles of XXXX size require 30W oils" if they felt it necessary. Meanwhile, having all of the motorhomes they make having engine failures? Seems like a PR nightmare they'd wish to avoid, even with low sales.


Originally Posted By: Trav
Don't get me wrong i am not saying it cant run on 20w oil the obviously can. I am just saying there may or may not be something more optimal for the engine in those conditions.



I certainly think it's a reasonable question to ask. I mean, it's a heavy vehicle subject to a lot of load. I think one of the guys on the Ford site said it best: people need to worry more about how thick an oil is in operation and less about how thick it is sitting on the shelf. I think that's good advice, and this vehicle is designed to keep the oil cool--and hence not too thin.

 

[Trav]

What i was thinking about was when Ford back spec'd the 5.4 2V in the Expedition. Over 8500 GVW use 5w30.

 

[rvt]

I like a little extra margin of safety too, but I'll get it through other avenues than heavier than spec oil

1. I'm one of the slowest RV drivers on the road. I cruise at indicated 60 MPH which is 58 GPS. The wind drag on the class C is very significant and at my cruising speed the rig slips quietly through the air. At 70 the wind sounds become much more noticeable with a general feeling there's a lot of power being produced (and used) here.

2. I'm not anywhere close to loading the chassis to capacity.

3. I generally back off, drop a gear and take it easy on hills. Especially in hot weather.

My V10 has a big oil cooler with good size coolant lines running to it.

I appreciate all who participated in the discussion, especially JOD for posting the PDF link to the Ford document. To the guys who proposed a heavier grade either in a 20 weight or above, I'm flexible. If I travel with someone who sets a faster pace, or I'm towing I can swap in a little extra margin of safety.

These V10s do well in motorhome applications, and some out there have very high mileages. The great majority of motorhomes don't get used as much due to time constraints and fuel costs. It is very common to find old motorhomes with 40,000 or 50,000 miles on them.

 

[donnyj08]

I may be wrong, but im under the impression a liquid cooled automobile engine, is designed with a thermostat and set temperature it will run at when up to operating temperature. If the engine is designed to run at 190*f, it will more than likely run that temperature or very close to it in the desert as well as up north. The thermostat will ensure the engine stays at its warm temperature in the winter, and in the summer or in hot climates circulate, and use the assistance of fans to keep the engine within a safe operating temperature. so the Internal temperature difference that the oil will deal with inside of and engine is not extreme from one climate to another. this makes the it unnecessary to use different oils based upon climate. I lived in central America for a year and yes they use 30 and 40wts in modular motors, but the reason is because that's what is available to them. they use those weights because 80% of the engines there are diesel or older gas engines so they have little need to import expensive 0w20 oils, which can be found at dealers, but they are expensive. they use those thicker oils because its whats available to them on the streets and service stations at a reasonable cost, not because they need the thick oil in their climate.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: donnyj08
I may be wrong, but im under the impression a liquid cooled automobile engine, is designed with a thermostat and set temperature it will run at when up to operating temperature. If the engine is designed to run at 190*f, it will more than likely run that temperature or very close to it in the desert as well as up north. The thermostat will ensure the engine stays at its warm temperature in the winter, and in the summer or in hot climates circulate, and use the assistance of fans to keep the engine within a safe operating temperature. so the Internal temperature difference that the oil will deal with inside of and engine is not extreme from one climate to another. this makes the it unnecessary to use different oils based upon climate. I lived in central America for a year and yes they use 30 and 40wts in modular motors, but the reason is because that's what is available to them. they use those weights because 80% of the engines there are diesel or older gas engines so they have little need to import expensive 0w20 oils, which can be found at dealers, but they are expensive. they use those thicker oils because its whats available to them on the streets and service stations at a reasonable cost, not because they need the thick oil in their climate.


Oil temperature can and often does vary wildly from coolant temperature and that's why HD applications have oil coolers, as do most high performance applications. it is not uncommon for oil temp to get to 50+ degrees hotter than the coolant. Turbo apps can get it even hotter.

 

[donnyj08]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: donnyj08
I may be wrong, but im under the impression a liquid cooled automobile engine, is designed with a thermostat and set temperature it will run at when up to operating temperature. If the engine is designed to run at 190*f, it will more than likely run that temperature or very close to it in the desert as well as up north. The thermostat will ensure the engine stays at its warm temperature in the winter, and in the summer or in hot climates circulate, and use the assistance of fans to keep the engine within a safe operating temperature. so the Internal temperature difference that the oil will deal with inside of and engine is not extreme from one climate to another. this makes the it unnecessary to use different oils based upon climate. I lived in central America for a year and yes they use 30 and 40wts in modular motors, but the reason is because that's what is available to them. they use those weights because 80% of the engines there are diesel or older gas engines so they have little need to import expensive 0w20 oils, which can be found at dealers, but they are expensive. they use those thicker oils because its whats available to them on the streets and service stations at a reasonable cost, not because they need the thick oil in their climate.


Oil temperature can and often does vary wildly from coolant temperature and that's why HD applications have oil coolers, as do most high performance applications. it is not uncommon for oil temp to get to 50+ degrees hotter than the coolant. Turbo apps can get it even hotter.


Understood, so on any engine with and oil cooler thats run hard the max oil temp should be around 250-260*? assuming its coolant temperature is set to never exceed 205* or so. isnt that well within the safe margin for any API oil?

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: donnyj08
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: donnyj08
I may be wrong, but im under the impression a liquid cooled automobile engine, is designed with a thermostat and set temperature it will run at when up to operating temperature. If the engine is designed to run at 190*f, it will more than likely run that temperature or very close to it in the desert as well as up north. The thermostat will ensure the engine stays at its warm temperature in the winter, and in the summer or in hot climates circulate, and use the assistance of fans to keep the engine within a safe operating temperature. so the Internal temperature difference that the oil will deal with inside of and engine is not extreme from one climate to another. this makes the it unnecessary to use different oils based upon climate. I lived in central America for a year and yes they use 30 and 40wts in modular motors, but the reason is because that's what is available to them. they use those weights because 80% of the engines there are diesel or older gas engines so they have little need to import expensive 0w20 oils, which can be found at dealers, but they are expensive. they use those thicker oils because its whats available to them on the streets and service stations at a reasonable cost, not because they need the thick oil in their climate.


Oil temperature can and often does vary wildly from coolant temperature and that's why HD applications have oil coolers, as do most high performance applications. it is not uncommon for oil temp to get to 50+ degrees hotter than the coolant. Turbo apps can get it even hotter.


Understood, so on any engine with and oil cooler thats run hard the max oil temp should be around 250-260*? assuming its coolant temperature is set to never exceed 205* or so. isnt that well within the safe margin for any API oil?


I don't know what the general safety margin is for an API oil or how tolerant they are of seeing temperatures in that range for extended periods of time. Some turbo apps see oil temperatures of 300 degrees. Most applications that get the oil that hot specify a synthetic lubricant. They also usually specify a heavier lubricant (particularly in the case of euro apps).

 

[donnyj08]

Thanks, i appreciate the info, i realized turbo applications heat up the oil pretty high, i was just curious if in the typical NA Engine like the modular fords, which has and oil cooler, if the engine gets hot enough between the two climates to justify the need for heavier oil. Im not against heavier oils at all as some may think. I just haven't found any solid info to justify using oil that's heavier than spec'd by any manufacture.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: donnyj08
Thanks, i appreciate the info, i realized turbo applications heat up the oil pretty high, i was just curious if in the typical NA Engine like the modular fords, which has and oil cooler, if the engine gets hot enough between the two applications to justify the need for heavier oil.


One must keep in mind that not all Modulars have oil coolers

The ones in the trucks with tow packages, any of the Super Duties, Expedition (with tow package) and the taxi/police package cars all do. This is due to Ford's classification of this usage profile as "heavy duty", and subsequently extra effort is taken to control oil temperatures.

On the other hand, if I remember correctly, the new Mustang GT doesn't have an oil cooler and one of our members, SteveSRT8 witnessed one go into oil temperature limp mode on a tracking day this past summer. The BOSS 302 however, I believe DOES have an oil cooler, but also spec's 5w50. So Ford's use of 5w20 in the Mustang GT appears to come with a caveat that the ECM is equipped to cripple the car if the oil temperature exceeds the safe operating range of this lubricant. The margin of safety with the BOSS 302 would be much higher due to the heavier lubricant with a much higher HTHS so even if it has the same feature, it would be at a higher temperature due to this fact alone.

I like comparing the Mustang GT and the BOSS 302 because they are very, VERY similar cars. The engines are extremely similar, both being 5.0L DOHC V8's, with the BOSS 302 getting some "extra" features, deeper breathing....etc for that bump in power that it receives. But despite their similarities, Ford spec's vastly different lubricants for them due to their perceived usage profiles. And we know, that, as far as CAFE goes, the BOSS 302 is not going to be sold in numbers even approaching on being in the same neighbourhood as the Mustang GT.

 

[Jim Allen]

Originally Posted By: rvt
I like a little extra margin of safety too, but I'll get it through other avenues than heavier than spec oil

1. I'm one of the slowest RV drivers on the road. I cruise at indicated 60 MPH which is 58 GPS. The wind drag on the class C is very significant and at my cruising speed the rig slips quietly through the air. At 70 the wind sounds become much more noticeable with a general feeling there's a lot of power being produced (and used) here.

2. I'm not anywhere close to loading the chassis to capacity.

3. I generally back off, drop a gear and take it easy on hills. Especially in hot weather.

My V10 has a big oil cooler with good size coolant lines running to it.

I appreciate all who participated in the discussion, especially JOD for posting the PDF link to the Ford document. To the guys who proposed a heavier grade either in a 20 weight or above, I'm flexible. If I travel with someone who sets a faster pace, or I'm towing I can swap in a little extra margin of safety.

These V10s do well in motorhome applications, and some out there have very high mileages. The great majority of motorhomes don't get used as much due to time constraints and fuel costs. It is very common to find old motorhomes with 40,000 or 50,000 miles on them.


Good for you! You listened to all and made your choice based on your known conditions. I think it's likely to be the right choice, despite the fact that I recommended a heavier oil (I have a rep here as a "light oil guy" generally, I think).