Toyo oil viscosity - 0W16

[zyxelenator]

In reality the difference between a 0w16 and a 0w20 is so minimal that I wonder why they even bothered to come out with 0w16. At operating temperature the difference is about 0.5 cst. Your engine won’t know the difference.

probably trying to chase that 0.5 mpg gain to meet CAFE requirements. If I'm not mistaken some toyotas now call for 0w-8 oil... They just need to add one more EV to line up to bump up their avg MPG to keep CAFE happy. But no, yota seems to still try to fight EVs by making one of the ugliest on the market with so so specs...

 

[Patman]

probably trying to chase that 0.5 mpg gain to meet CAFE requirements. If I'm not mistaken some toyotas now call for 0w-8 oil... They just need to add one more EV to line up to bump up their avg MPG to keep CAFE happy. But no, yota seems to still try to fight EVs by making one of the ugliest on the market with so so specs...

I don’t think you would even see a 0.5 MPG gain with an oil that is 0.5cst thinner. Probably not even 0.01 MPG

 

[mikeduf]

I will chime and, I have a 2024 limited hybrid. At 200 Mi I did a oil change myself as I do all my vehicles and motorcycles.

No oil analysis done but I did notice contaminants floating around mostly production crap. Add 700 Mi give or take I did another oil change/w filter.
Both times used 0w 16.

A 2000 miles I did another oil change this time with a fresh filter.
At 3500 miles I did another change to 0w-20.
And at around 4500 miles I switch to 0w-20 Kirkland brand.
That little four-cylinder pulls like a tractor now I think it's fully broken in.

Average Highway mph using the combustion side is around 38 to 40 MPG

Driving around town locally doing a lot of stop and go sitting in traffic driving I averaged 40 to 45 MPG I'm not an oil Miser nor a gas-miser so I don't really look at numbers that close I am more about how the engine feels when I drive it.

Most people I talk to don't get it but these little four-cylinder engines definitely run better after a fresh oil change. So no one needs to make comments that I'm wasting my money or wasting resources. Just my two cents here. Hope this helps enjoy the new car.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

I don’t think you would even see a 0.5 MPG gain with an oil that is 0.5cst thinner. Probably not even 0.01 MPG

Patman, where did you come up with 0.5 cSt?

Below is a comparison of M1 oils data sheet at KV40 (104°F) and KV100 (212°F)

0w16 is 6cSt less viscous at 104 deg F. Maybe you were thinking HTHS which is traditionally measured in cP


M1 0W16

M1 0W20 EP

My bias against low HTHS lubricants is that only my Honda 1.5 in my fit tolerated these oils without excessive engine noise (e.g: loud knocking) loss of performance and oil usage.

 

[6.7 CTD]

2022 Camry awd 2.5 (non-hybrid), under warranty, running 0w30 and 5w30. I posted my last uoa with HPL 5w30 no VII and I’m about to sample the 0w30 premium plus; will post uoa soon.

 

[Bkdc]

Crazy that the particles are not caught by the crappy filter.
I personally change my oil 3 times in the first 2000 miles but I’m paranoid. It’s an additional 80 dollars and time out of my pocket. I also swap the oil drain plug to a Votex magnetic (it’s the only one available with the same 14mm size bolt same as Toyota OEM) on the first change (or whatever high quality stainless plug of choice is).

 

[Jimmy_Russells]

Patman, where did you come up with 0.5 cSt?

Below is a comparison of M1 oils data sheet at KV40 (104°F) and KV100 (212°F)

0w16 is 6cSt less viscous at 104 deg F. Maybe you were thinking HTHS which is traditionally measured in cP


M1 0W16
View attachment 258078


M1 0W20 EP
View attachment 258079

My bias against low HTHS lubricants is that only my Honda 1.5 in my fit tolerated these oils without excessive engine noise (e.g: loud knocking) loss of performance and oil usage.

I think Mobil 1 0w20 AFE is more like 8.2 or 8.1 at 100C.

Most of the fuel savings comes from cold starts and while the engine is warming, not as much after it is warm.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

I think Mobil 1 0w20 AFE is more like 8.2 or 8.1 at 100C.

Most of the fuel savings comes from cold starts and while the engine is warming, not as much after it is warm.

You be correct.

"Friends don't let friends run AFE"

M1 0W20 AFE

 

[Bkdc]

My belief is that most engine wear (75% or so during its lifetime) occurs at warmup between the time your engine is first starting and when it hits operating temperature as the engine runs a rich fuel mixture and there is more fuel dilution, wash down of protective oil at the upper cylinder, and blow by. It’s HTHS versus the protection of getting your engine up to operating temperature quickly and preventing washing of the protective oil layer with a rich fuel mixture. I do think thin oils get up to temperature a little more quickly on colder days when I’m monitoring the oil temp. Yes, this is where the fuel savings comes from. It runs thinner while cold and seems to get to temperature a little faster. Once the engine is nice and hot, there’s minimal fuel savings. There’s also minimal wear once engine is up to temperature… unless you are tugging a boat.

I can’t say that having metal flakes in the pan can ever be good but maybe it’s not doing damage. Even when I change my oil for the third time at 1500 to 2000 miles, I still see flakes in the drained oil.

 

[Patman]

Patman, where did you come up with 0.5 cSt?

Below is a comparison of M1 oils data sheet at KV40 (104°F) and KV100 (212°F)

0w16 is 6cSt less viscous at 104 deg F. Maybe you were thinking HTHS which is traditionally measured in cP


M1 0W16
View attachment 258078


M1 0W20 EP
View attachment 258079

My bias against low HTHS lubricants is that only my Honda 1.5 in my fit tolerated these oils without excessive engine noise (e.g: loud knocking) loss of performance and oil usage.

I am comparing M1 0w16 to M1 0w20 at operating temperature and the difference is 7.4 cst vs 8.2 cst at 100c. That’s barely anything.

 

[Jimmy_Russells]

I am comparing M1 0w16 to M1 0w20 at operating temperature and the difference is 7.4 cst vs 8.2 cst at 100c.

6 cSt at 40C, not 100C

Although compared to AFE it's more like 4 cSt

 

[Patman]

6 cSt at 40C, not 100C

Although compared to AFE it's more like 4 cSt

But your engine spends very little time at that lower temperature and WAY MORE time at operating temperature.

 

[kschachn]

My belief is that most engine wear (75% or so during its lifetime) occurs at warmup between the time your engine is first starting and when it hits operating temperature as the engine runs a rich fuel mixture and there is more fuel dilution, wash down of protective oil at the upper cylinder, and blow by. It’s HTHS versus the protection of getting your engine up to operating temperature quickly and preventing washing of the protective oil layer with a rich fuel mixture. I do think thin oils get up to temperature a little more quickly on colder days when I’m monitoring the oil temp. Yes, this is where the fuel savings comes from. It runs thinner while cold and seems to get to temperature a little faster. Once the engine is nice and hot, there’s minimal fuel savings. There’s also minimal wear once engine is up to temperature… unless you are tugging a boat.

I can’t say that having metal flakes in the pan can ever be good but maybe it’s not doing damage. Even when I change my oil for the third time at 1500 to 2000 miles, I still see flakes in the drained oil.

Warmup is the most wear, yes. Not startup as often postulated. But thicker oils always warm up faster due to shear heating.

 

[nthach]

FWIW, I’m running 0W-16 in a Camry Hybrid that calls for 0W-8, local WM doesn’t stock the latter. It’s a ‘25 that sees 90% Uber use, but so far I don’t see it drink oil… yet. There’s about 27K on the clock.

I might bump up to a 0W-20 on it later on. I’ll need to run a UOA on it sometime soon.

 

[kschachn]

I think Mobil 1 0w20 AFE is more like 8.2 or 8.1 at 100C.

Most of the fuel savings comes from cold starts and while the engine is warming, not as much after it is warm.

Fuel economy improvements do not come from cold starts. When an engine is started the viscosity is very high and drag is at its highest. Besides, the engine runs at the lowest temperature for only a short period of time before the oil starts to heat. And depending on the temperature it is quite possible an oil with a 0W rating may be more viscous than one with a 5W rating.

EPA fuel economy testing is biased towards normal operating temperature since that is where the engine operates most of the time.

 

[Bkdc]

Warmup is the most wear, yes. Not startup as often postulated. But thicker oils always warm up faster due to shear heating.

Thicker oils would generate more heat during shear. I’m not sure whether thicker oils when cold would be able to easily flow/penetrate to the narrow upper parts of the engine even with a functional oil pump putting a certain flow rate. The upper cylinder lubrication is getting diluted and blown down. If this is replaced with fresh oil and the replacement with 5w-30 is at the same rate as that with a thinner oil at any reasonable temperature (say, above 60 degrees F as the engine hits this temperature very quickly), then running the thicker oil is more protective. My concern is whether a lot more oil is shunted to lower pressure areas in the engine and can’t replenish the diluted oil up high as flow rates are lower despite pressure being maintained in the system. This is probably all academic because 5w-30 is still very protective in almost all engines at almost all reasonable temperatures.

 

[kschachn]

My concern is whether a lot more oil is shunted to lower pressure areas in the engine and can’t replenish the diluted oil up high as flow rates are lower despite pressure being maintained in the system.

I have no idea what that means.

 

[ATex7239]

Thicker oils would generate more heat during shear. I’m not sure whether thicker oils when cold would be able to easily flow/penetrate to the narrow upper parts of the engine even with a functional oil pump putting a certain flow rate. The upper cylinder lubrication is getting diluted and blown down. If this is replaced with fresh oil and the replacement with 5w-30 is at the same rate as that with a thinner oil at any reasonable temperature (say, above 60 degrees F as the engine hits this temperature very quickly), then running the thicker oil is more protective. My concern is whether a lot more oil is shunted to lower pressure areas in the engine and can’t replenish the diluted oil up high as flow rates are lower despite pressure being maintained in the system. This is probably all academic because 5w-30 is still very protective in almost all engines at almost all reasonable temperatures.

Are you saying you’re concerned that 5W30 will not get to the necessary places as quickly or efficiently as 0W16 or 0W20?

If so that is not something to worry about. If it were cold oil at freezing temps would rapidly damage engines. The same oil at 40c vs 100c has far more variance than two difference viscosities oils at the same temp.

 

[Bkdc]

Are you saying you’re concerned that 5W30 will not get to the necessary places as quickly or efficiently as 0W16 or 0W20?

If so that is not something to worry about. If it were cold oil at freezing temps would rapidly damage engines. The same oil at 40c vs 100c has far more variance than two difference viscosities oils at the same temp.

That is my concern. I see temps as low as 40 degrees F. I rarely see freezing temps, so the oil is flowing but still a bit thick. So it’s the first few minutes after starting that are the concern.. and in a A25A-FXS engine, warm-up is much slower than on a standard ICE engine. Engine seems efficient and generates much less excess heat. My Mercedes heats way more quickly.

 

[ATex7239]

That is my concern. I see temps as low as 40 degrees F. I rarely see freezing temps, so the oil is flowing but still a bit thick. So it’s the first few minutes after starting that are the concern..

40f is nothing to worry about. Start it up, give it a few seconds, and then just drive it. Whether it’s 0W16 or 5W30.