Top offs on your carry gun, yay or nay?

[HyundaiAbuser]

Back to the topic of capacity. If the gun has the ability to bring an extra round into a fight, why would you not want that round?

My department procedure - insert full magazine. Send slide forward. Remove magazine. Add one round. Insert magazine. Holster weapon.

The Glock 19 already holds 15 rounds. I have two spare magazines with me.

But I’m going to carry that one extra round, because nobody here can predict exactly how the gun fight is going to go down. And when you’re in a gun fight, more ammo is better than less.

I think there is some debate for likely circumstance between department procedure and joe blows just wanting some protection. If you're carrying for duty you may have to engage people holed up and hell bent on going to the very end, potential hostage etc etc. You don't get the option to just disengage. Id assume most civilians are just using it as a tool to break contact as engaging in a sustained gunfight is going to bring quite a bit of scrutiny if that isn't a part of your job. I'm not a lawyer but we've seen people have caliber/equipment/style of weapon utilized in prosecution justly or not. I'm also not saying it would happen but there's a world where a jury of our "peers" could see someone going out of their way to add extra rounds and skew that into looking for a fight for something that likely wont make a ton of difference for the most common semi automatic carry guns today.

This is not an endorsement for or against but I could see why someone wouldn't.

 

[Hall]

That what full capacity means, round in the chamber and full mag.

I don't think everyone agrees with that. I'd say most people fill the magazine, then chamber a round, and move on. They still consider that "fully loaded". Not saying they aren't aware of this capability either.

 

[dubber09]

There may be a words play here - 'fully loaded' vs 'full capacity'. Fully loaded basically means - round in chamber, mag with ammo in the gun, regardless whether mag is full or not.
I competitions we use term 'load to full capacity' which in practicality means full mag capacity +1 in chamber - load full mag into gun, cycle slide to load round in chamber, remove mag and either put another round in the mag and then load now full mag in the gun OR load another fully loaded mag into gun, retain 'stripper' mag on belt.
I normally start with 6 mags total with 5 kept on belt where last 'stripper' mag has -1 round now as I don't carry loose ammo to top up.
So, in my view full capacity means round in chamber and full mag in gun.

 

[Hohn]

Yeah, I agree it's likely a context-dependent phrasing.

If you put in a full mag and charge the weapon, you aren't "downloaded" by any reasonable measure I can say.

 

[Hohn]

I think there is some debate for likely circumstance between department procedure and joe blows just wanting some protection. If you're carrying for duty you may have to engage people holed up and hell bent on going to the very end, potential hostage etc etc. You don't get the option to just disengage. Id assume most civilians are just using it as a tool to break contact as engaging in a sustained gunfight is going to bring quite a bit of scrutiny if that isn't a part of your job. I'm not a lawyer but we've seen people have caliber/equipment/style of weapon utilized in prosecution justly or not. I'm also not saying it would happen but there's a world where a jury of our "peers" could see someone going out of their way to add extra rounds and skew that into looking for a fight for something that likely wont make a ton of difference for the most common semi automatic carry guns today.

This is not an endorsement for or against but I could see why someone wouldn't.

If the kind of weapon or ammo used is somehow dispositive, then fire the lawyer and you should have grounds for appeal. Lethal force is lethal force. It's either lawful or not. *how* that force was applied cannot matter in a legal sense.

The problem is that people take stories from Mas Ayoob and others who relay information of particular cases where the lawyers were terrible and the jury horribly biased, and then recommend you somehow account for all the human frailties of the legal system but only carrying certain calibers, ammo, means of carry (open/concealed) etc.

I can't agree with that. You cannot make yourself legally unable to be screwed. If that's your fear, best not carry and just be a victim instead.

 

[ATex7239]

I think there is some debate for likely circumstance between department procedure and joe blows just wanting some protection. If you're carrying for duty you may have to engage people holed up and hell bent on going to the very end, potential hostage etc etc. You don't get the option to just disengage. Id assume most civilians are just using it as a tool to break contact as engaging in a sustained gunfight is going to bring quite a bit of scrutiny if that isn't a part of your job.

That’s why it’s hard to fault folks for doing things differently. There are many different situations that can change what, how, and why one chooses to carry. Going to the grocery store in the low crime, high income suburb in the summer might warrant just carrying a good old J frame in the front pocket. Hiking in bear country during mating season might warranty a slung 12ga shotgun with slugs. And you probably don’t want to get your approach on those two situations mixed up either.

I'm not a lawyer but we've seen people have caliber/equipment/style of weapon utilized in prosecution justly or not. I'm also not saying it would happen but there's a world where a jury of our "peers" could see someone going out of their way to add extra rounds and skew that into looking for a fight for something that likely wont make a ton of difference for the most common semi automatic carry guns today.

This one is tricky because it’s so hard to predict what/how things will play out. But IMO the first priority is surviving and then comes everything else after. Like mentioned above, I just need to break contact from the threat/situation whether that’s me leaving or the threat/situation leaving or stopping. The legal and moral aftermath is whole another can of worms.

 

[Gillsy]

What gun do you have - and how do you “put one in the pipe”?

Slide locked back, drop one in the chamber, close the slide, and then insert the loaded magazine. I have various semi autos that are similar in operation.

 

[Astro14]

Slide locked back, drop one in the chamber, close the slide, and then insert the loaded magazine. I have various semi autos that are similar in operation.

A method that is specifically cautioned against by some gun makers because it breaks extractors.

The extractor isn’t designed to “jump” the rim of the cartridge, it was designed to hold the rim, which was slid up under it when the round was loaded from the Magazine.

The manual for every single semi-auto pistol I own instructs the owner to load the gun from the magazine only.

That’s why I was asking. Some guns, Springfield XD, I am told, can handle it.

Many can not.

So, I don’t ever load a semi-auto that way, I don’t want to encourage bad habits.

Load from the magazine only. I am not alone in this, Bill Wilson, among others, says magazine only.

 

[CKolo]

One chambered with full mag and full extra mag somewhere on me….always.

 

[Pew]

I've always wondered how people manage to NG when re-holstering. Do they not keep their fingers straight and off the trigger???

 

[ATex7239]

I've always wondered how people manage to NG when re-holstering. Do they not keep their fingers straight and off the trigger???

Assuming the gun didn’t malfunction it’s either them or the holster, clothing, etc engaging the trigger, right? Reholstering should always be done slowly and very carefully. No reason to not take your time. Even after a defensive use. Get it out fast. Put it back slow.

 

[Pew]

Assuming the gun didn’t malfunction it’s either them or the holster, clothing, etc engaging the trigger, right? Reholstering should always be done slowly and very carefully. No reason to not take your time. Even after a defensive use. Get it out fast. Put it back slow.

Do you think their triggers are aftermarket/super light too? All the stock triggers I've felt required a decent amount of pull and distance before firing, especially with popular CC pistols.

 

[Greenbeforeblue]

Slide locked back, drop one in the chamber, close the slide, and then insert the loaded magazine. I have various semi autos that are similar in operation.

That's a good way to break an extractor.

 

[Hall]

Do you think their triggers are aftermarket/super light too?

I have an Apex trigger in an M&P and it's using the lightest combination of springs. I won't carry it and really need to have the springs swapped out for a little heavier pull weight.

 

[ATex7239]

Do you think their triggers are aftermarket/super light too? All the stock triggers I've felt required a decent amount of pull and distance before firing, especially with popular CC pistols.

IDK brother. I don’t modify any internals on my guns. I prefer to keep it stock.

 

[ATex7239]

I have an Apex trigger in an M&P and it's using the lightest combination of springs. I won't carry it and really need to have the springs swapped out for a little heavier pull weight.

Modifying carry guns is another can of worms topic altogether. I’m against modifying internals (external accessories are ok though) on carry guns. Not because of how it may look with an overzealous prosecutor or jury. But because of the risk of malfunction or issues if not done correctly. If you’re an armor or gunsmith or experienced at it then by all means. Not a gamble I’m willing to take.

 

[Astro14]

I've always wondered how people manage to NG when re-holstering. Do they not keep their fingers straight and off the trigger???

Depending on the design of the holster, then, yes, you can get a negligent discharge, which is what I assume you meant by NG.

I know I’ve told the story many times before, but my neighbor in Colorado was a guy named Mike, and Mike worked at Rocky Flats, the former nuclear site, as a security guard.

The federal agency updated them from their Sig Sauer to a Glock, but neglected to buy them new holsters. Shortly after receiving his new Glock, Mike was out doing a perimeter check, and as the pick up truck went over some rough Colorado terrain, the gun became unholstered.

Mike pressed the back of the gun into the holster with the heel of his palm on the slide. A “palm” check. His fingers weren’t anywhere near the firearm, it was just the heel of his hand.

Totally safe, right?

Except, on that day, it wasn’t.

The leather holster, with its improper fit, and compressed by his seated position, somehow engaged the trigger of the Glock, and a round discharged that grazed his thigh, went through his foot, and out the bottom of the vehicle.

Mike came to the door on crutches with his right foot in a cast when I stopped by his house shortly after reading the headline in the Denver Post, “Rocky Flats security guard shoots self in foot.”.

Kydex, or a stiff insert that prevents holster collapse, minimizes this risk. But having seen a guy who worked in security at a nuclear site, and who carried a firearm as part of his job, have an ND when he had done everything correctly, is part of the reason I will not appendix carry. When I am seated in a vehicle, I do not want that muzzle pointed at my left thigh or anything else.

 

[CKolo]

Depending on the design of the holster, then, yes, you can get a negligent discharge, which is what I assume you meant by NG.

I know I’ve told the story many times before, but my neighbor in Colorado was a guy named Mike, and Mike worked at Rocky Flats, the former nuclear site, as a security guard.

The federal agency updated them from their Sig Sauer to a Glock, but neglected to buy them new holsters. Shortly, after receiving his new Glock, Mike was out doing a perimeter check, and as the pick up truck went over some rough Colorado to rain, the gun became unholstered.

Mike pressed the back of the gun into the holster with the heel of his palm on the slide. A “palm” check. His fingers weren’t anywhere near the firearm, it was just the heel of his hand.

Totally safe, right?

Except, on that day, it wasn’t.

The leather holster, with its improper fit, and compressed by his seated position, somehow engaged the trigger of the Glock, and a round discharged that grazed his thigh, went through his foot, and out the bottom of the vehicle.

Mike came to the door on crutches with his right foot in a cast when I stopped by his house shortly after reading the headline in the Denver Post, “Rocky Flats security guard shoots self in foot.”.

Kydex, or a stiff insert that prevents holster collapse, minimizes this risk. But having seen a guy who worked in security at a nuclear site, and who carried a firearm as part of his job, have an ND when he had done everything correctly, is part of the reason I will not appendix carry. When I am seated in a vehicle, I do not want that muzzle pointed at my left thigh or anything else.

Well written- many good points and that is why I own many different holsters and many different firearms because what I’m doing, where I’m going dictates the carry. I do not, ever appendix carry seated- ever, just as
@Astro14 stated. If I do appendix carry, firearm is in the holster in console while driving, I get to Supermarket, Hardware store, basically anywhere in and out with no seat time and I know I will be walking; holster goes right in the pants in the parking lot. Practice, practice, practice- you get real good at being discreet.

If it’s a night out, dinner/movie where I’ll be sitting- 4’oclock position. May or may not be the same firearm/ holster combo. Might be IWB or OWB. Like my previous post, depends on the season, clothing I’m wearing, etc.

Great thread!

 

[Hall]

Modifying carry guns is another can of worms topic altogether. I’m against modifying internals (external accessories are ok though) on carry guns. Not because of how it may look with an overzealous prosecutor or jury. But because of the risk of malfunction or issues if not done correctly. If you’re an armor or gunsmith or experienced at it then by all means. Not a gamble I’m willing to take.

Yeah, I'd probably never concealed carry it, besides it being a full-size gun, it's too big for me to easily conceal. I did take it hiking in TN with it in a IWB holster but carried in a pocket. I don't think there's any "not done correctly" aspect though. It either works or it doesn't when it comes to triggers, if I'm not mistaken. I'm not sure that most prosecutors (or juries) would identify it as being modified though.

I do carry a P365X and it's also "modified" with a Wilson Combat grip module. That doesn't worry me though. The internals aren't touched or changed with these grips.

 

[Gillsy]

A method that is specifically cautioned against by some gun makers because it breaks extractors.

The extractor isn’t designed to “jump” the rim of the cartridge, it was designed to hold the rim, which was slid up under it when the round was loaded from the Magazine.

The manual for every single semi-auto pistol I own instructs the owner to load the gun from the magazine only.

That’s why I was asking. Some guns, Springfield XD, I am told, can handle it.

Many can not.

So, I don’t ever load a semi-auto that way, I don’t want to encourage bad habits.

Load from the magazine only. I am not alone in this, Bill Wilson, among others, says magazine only.

I didn't know that, thank you!