Top 5 reliable, affordable car makers?

[wag123]

Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by supton
I'm more curious about what is more reliable and affordable outside of warranty--AFAIK vehicles have lower TCO if driven long past warranty so as to drive cost per mile down. But then you worry about when costs will go through the roof as MTBF on every system and component is reached.


What I find so frustrating is that you can't really find any data on long-term (i.e. 5 yrs+) ownership. There is a group in Germany (maybe TUV) which literally disassembles vehicles with about 50k miles on them but of course a majority of those vehicles aren't sold in the US.

If you look ad the JD Power VDS (3 yr) study I posted you'll see VW/Hyundai ranked above and sometimes well above Honda, Nissan, Mazda, as well as a bunch of the domestics yet owners of these brands claim their vehicles have been very reliable post warranty.
Personally, I don't believe ANYTHING that JD Power says and I don't give ANY additional consideration to products that use their "awards" in their advertising.
Corporations hire them for advertising purposes, so they work for those corporations, and they issue bogus "awards" for whatever makes that corporation's products look better than the competition's products. Statistics can be manipulated to make anything look better or worse than it actually is, especially when there is a profit motive. For example, they have issued "reliability" awards for virtually every Chevy product for the last 5 years (which we all know is bogus) and Chevy has been using this in virtually every add for at least the last couple of years.
What DOES sway me are ratings/rankings based on INDEPENDENT not for profit scientific surveys like what Consumer Reports and dashboard-light does. CR only goes back 6 years but dashboard-light goes back 25 years and their ratings are weighted by age and miles (http://www.dashboard-light.com/how-we-figure-out-the-score/) which is how Hummer and SAAB land so high in their manufacturer ratings (http://www.dashboard-light.com/vehicles/Resources/Images/QIRAlpha.png), neither one of them would be rated as high without the weighting.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted by wag123
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by supton
I'm more curious about what is more reliable and affordable outside of warranty--AFAIK vehicles have lower TCO if driven long past warranty so as to drive cost per mile down. But then you worry about when costs will go through the roof as MTBF on every system and component is reached.


What I find so frustrating is that you can't really find any data on long-term (i.e. 5 yrs+) ownership. There is a group in Germany (maybe TUV) which literally disassembles vehicles with about 50k miles on them but of course a majority of those vehicles aren't sold in the US.

If you look ad the JD Power VDS (3 yr) study I posted you'll see VW/Hyundai ranked above and sometimes well above Honda, Nissan, Mazda, as well as a bunch of the domestics yet owners of these brands claim their vehicles have been very reliable post warranty.
Personally, I don't believe ANYTHING that JD Power says and I don't give ANY additional consideration to products that use their "awards" in their advertising.
Corporations hire them for advertising purposes, so they work for those corporations, and they issue bogus "awards" for whatever makes that corporation's products look better than the competition's products. Statistics can be manipulated to make anything look better or worse than it actually is, especially when there is a profit motive. For example, they have issued "reliability" awards for virtually every Chevy product for the last 5 years (which we all know is bogus) and Chevy has been using this in virtually every add for at least the last couple of years.
What DOES sway me are ratings/rankings based on INDEPENDENT not for profit scientific surveys like what Consumer Reports and dashboard-light does. CR only goes back 6 years but dashboard-light goes back 25 years and their ratings are weighted by age and miles (http://www.dashboard-light.com/how-we-figure-out-the-score/) which is how Hummer and SAAB land so high in their manufacturer ratings (http://www.dashboard-light.com/vehicles/Resources/Images/QIRAlpha.png).



CR is just owner surveys which still has some subjective component via "rose colored glasses" owners who overlook certain things. Dashboard is interesting but I think some luxury brands appear worse because the initial owners usually leased the car and may not have kept up with maintenance and/or abused the vehicle whereas other manufacturers tend to sell cars which are financed or paid for with cash and those owners may take care of their vehicles. Don't get me wrong these sources can be helpful but they have limitations.

 

[Elkins45]

As the OP I will clarify that I'm talking about long-term ownership after the warranty has expired. These days I tend to drive a vehicle 10+ years and as many miles as I can squeeze out of it. Now that I'm retired I don't put nearly as many miles on a car as I once did. Right now my daily driver is a 2016 Mazda6 with a J VIN and a six speed manual. My other vehicles are a 98 Silverado with 44k miles (that has tons of issues) and a 2017 Nissan Titan. It has a 5/50k warranty and that's what made me choose it. I figure if it can be fixed free for five years I will have enough money to replace it by then should it turn out to be a lemon.

I should also clarify that reliable means "starts and drives OK" in my world. A lot of these initial quality things that get reported are for dumb stuff like heated seats or radio knobs. It's annoying if trim falls off or it rattles a bit, but it's far more annoying when a connecting rod blows out the side of the crankcase.

 

[wag123]

Originally Posted by Elkins45
As the OP I will clarify that I'm talking about long-term ownership after the warranty has expired. These days I tend to drive a vehicle 10+ years and as many miles as I can squeeze out of it. Now that I'm retired I don't put nearly as many miles on a car as I once did. Right now my daily driver is a 2016 Mazda6 with a J VIN and a six speed manual. My other vehicles are a 98 Silverado with 44k miles (that has tons of issues) and a 2017 Nissan Titan. It has a 5/50k warranty and that's what made me choose it. I figure if it can be fixed free for five years I will have enough money to replace it by then should it turn out to be a lemon.
I'm in the same boat as you Elkins.
Dashboard-light's 25 year manufacturer ranking for vehicles (still being produced) is...
1. Toyota/Lexus
2. Porsche
3. Mercedes
4. Infiniti
5. Honda
Are ALL of the vehicles being produced by these manufacturers reliable? Of course not. Do Toyota products break? Of course they do. But, picking a vehicle from any one of these manufacturers SHOULD get you a more reliable vehicle IMO.
The Titan was a good choice IMO and should serve you well http://dashboard-light.com/vehicles/Nissan_Titan.html

 

[wag123]

Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
CR is just owner surveys which still has some subjective component via "rose colored glasses" owners who overlook certain things.
Actually, having taken their surveys MANY times, they are VERY careful to do their survey in such a way that it filters out the subjective components. They just don't go back far enough IMO.

Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Dashboard is interesting but I think some luxury brands appear worse because the initial owners usually leased the car and may not have kept up with maintenance and/or abused the vehicle whereas other manufacturers tend to sell cars which are financed or paid for with cash and those owners may take care of their vehicles.
I'm not really following you on this point, 3 of the top 5 rankings are luxury brands (4 of the top 6 if you include Lexus).

 

[Mad_Hatter]

Originally Posted by Elkins45
It's annoying if trim falls off or it rattles a bit, but it's far more annoying when a connecting rod blows out the side of the crankcase.


Careful, you could trigger someone ...‚

 

[KrisZ]

I choose vehicles based on model to model basis, not by brands. I have zero brand loyalty.

Each manufacturers has its good, OK and poor models.

 

[The Critic]

It is probably best to approach this by model or by powertrain, than by brand.

With that said, almost every current (or recent) model made by Toyota is excellent. Can't say the same about other makes, not even Honda.

 

[Ws6]

Originally Posted by The Critic
It is probably best to approach this by model or by powertrain, than by brand.

With that said, almost every current (or recent) model made by Toyota is excellent. Can't say the same about other makes, not even Honda.

Mazda is doing fine.

 

[Andrew1972]

Originally Posted by Ws6
Originally Posted by The Critic
It is probably best to approach this by model or by powertrain, than by brand.

With that said, almost every current (or recent) model made by Toyota is excellent. Can't say the same about other makes, not even Honda.

Mazda is doing fine.


Jury is out with Mazda. They are severe rot boxes in the Northeast for recent modern vehicles.

 

[Elkins45]

A
Originally Posted by madRiver
Originally Posted by Ws6
Originally Posted by The Critic
It is probably best to approach this by model or by powertrain, than by brand.

With that said, almost every current (or recent) model made by Toyota is excellent. Can't say the same about other makes, not even Honda.

Mazda is doing fine.


Jury is out with Mazda. They are severe rot boxes in the Northeast for recent modern vehicles.


I worry less about the sheet metal than I do the power train, although at a certain point you sorta feel like you didn't get your money's worth when you can see through the trunk.

 

[PimTac]

Everything rusts in the NE.

 

[supton]

Up here sheetmetal is kinda important. My (now retired) mechanic said his rule of thumb was that he had to be able to run his hand over it -- if that was dangerous to do, then the panel needed repairs. Let alone holes through the floor boards. Inspection fail.

What's weird is that body parts that are painted body color tend to stand up pretty well. Anything painted chassis black is rusted pretty quickly--but usually ok for a "normal" lifespan, well maybe not frames (especially not Toyotas!). Brake and fuel lines though I consider harbingers of impending doom, some have no problems fixing them but to me they are a sign that it's time to move on.

 

[fdcg27]

Not what I "associate" but in my personal ownership experience, consisting of a Toyota, two Fords, a Datsun (280Z 2+2, yeah!), a couple of Fords, three Chevies, four Subies and nine Hondas, two BMWs and four Benzes, I'd consider these as my top five, in no particular order:

Honda
Subaru
Ford
MB
BMW

I'll add that none of the cars we've ever owned, with some bought well-used, were really troublesome or really money pits.
Cars offered over the past forty years or so have generally been pretty good and not especially troublesome and that was probably true of earlier cars as well. Most cars back then required no more than a savvy owner while most cars these days will do just fine with any fool using them.
YMMV and JD Powers ratings mean about as much as your neighbor's opinion.

 

[Andrew1972]

What planet is MB or BMW considered affordable cars?

 

[tiger862]

I have owned many vehicles mostly used and one thing I tell anyone that is looking for a car is buy what you can afford and maintain it. If you buy by ratings you could have a great car that you hate. Most of working poor have cars with lower reliability ratings with alot of the ratings are obscure cause it winds up being a vehicle that they could only get financed due to credit and they have buyers remorse. Numerous trips to the dealer trying to get a buyback. I worked in dealerships for close to 30 years have seen it on more than one occasion. Worse new one I owned was the Tacoma not for mechanical but paint. I tried for 2 years to get them to repaint as every wash or wax paint would come off which they had a Toyota body shop try to reseal with them putting on paper needs repainting. One week after getting rear ended on interstate the dealer called to set a date for repaint.

 

[Skippy722]

Originally Posted by madRiver
What planet is MB or BMW considered affordable cars?


"Affordable" means different things to different people.

 

[bbhero]

Originally Posted by madRiver
What planet is MB or BMW considered affordable cars?

I agree in a way... Though affordable is on a sliding scale.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Originally Posted by madRiver
What planet is MB or BMW considered affordable cars?


Or reliable?

 

[Ws6]

Originally Posted by madRiver
Originally Posted by Ws6
Originally Posted by The Critic
It is probably best to approach this by model or by powertrain, than by brand.

With that said, almost every current (or recent) model made by Toyota is excellent. Can't say the same about other makes, not even Honda.

Mazda is doing fine.


Jury is out with Mazda. They are severe rot boxes in the Northeast for recent modern vehicles.


Eh, lots of stuff rusts if you subject it to harsh enough conditions.
Originally Posted by madRiver
What planet is MB or BMW considered affordable cars?

Their entry level stuff is very affordable. The(some of) AMG and M stuff is even becoming pretty affordable.