Tires Roaring

[MParr]

@930.engineering
From my observation this morning, it appears that the rear left has too much negative camber. The noise appeared after swapping tires from back to front. The inside front left has more inner tire wear. That tire was recently on the left rear. The one one the back now, has less inner wear. So now, the most worn tire is closer to the passenger compartment and is giving off more noticeable noise. The car has NOT been in an accident.

 

[doitmyself]

Assuming one will live with the noise for a few months with new tires on the horizon, is it best to get an alignment with the new tires installed (vs. old tires), or is this a moot point? Would the alignment technician gain more insight by observing the old tires?

KInd of a dumb question, since I assume the closer alignment is done to the new tire installation = better. Just wondering if old vs. new tires affects the technician's ability to achieve best alignment.

Thank you.

 

[MParr]

@doitmyself
That’s a good question. My thoughts is that it would be better to have it aligned before buying new tires. I would think that the problem should be remedied before shelling out $600+ for a new set of tires. If it’s not fixed or it’s made worse and the new tires are installed at the same time then, the new tires will tend to wear prematurely.

 

[BLND1]

Are these tires directional? Why arent you rotating in an x pattern?

 

[MParr]

Are these tires directional? Why are you rotating in an x pattern?

No, they are not directional. No, I HAVE NOT been rotating in an x pattern. Maybe, I should have. But, then again, it would have been harder to pin down.

 

[CapriRacer]

@capri: So front camber is as low as I expected. Rear camber seems much lower than expected. Where are these numbers from? A quick google search suggests this rear camber (no matter if Euro or NA spec Tiguan II):

-1º 20′ +- 30′​

​

and for front camber:

-0º 27′ +- 30′​

​

That's quite exactly what I mentioned in my previous post. Not that 60' (minutes) is 1° (degree) according to ISO.

Not to be offensive, but I performed alignment on hundreds of PQ35 and MQB cars. I'm quite familar with whats common on them.
On a side note, there's no chance for using any eccentric bolts on front and there aren't any camber plates except pillow ball design for racing applications.
However I don't expect camber and caster out of range on MParr's Tiguan since he didn't mention any accident.

I was responding to doitmyself's post - and he has a Jeep Patriot.

 

[BLND1]

No, they are not directional. No, I HAVE NOT been rotating in an x pattern. Maybe, I should have. But, then again, it would have been harder to pin down.

My fault, I meant “aren’t”. Typo.

I think your alignment is probably in spec, x-pattern rotation would have likely mitigated the issue.

 

[MParr]

My fault, I meant “aren’t”. Typo.

I think your alignment is probably in spec, x-pattern rotation would have likely mitigated the issue.

That’s possible. I’m taking it in next week and have them check it and adjust as necessary. When I replace the tires, I’ll rotate in an x pattern from now on out. And, I’ll make sure the tires are not directional.
I’ve never had this problem on a new low mileage car before.

 

[mightymousetech]

Folks and @CapriRacer in particular, I think that I found my problem. There is some inside tread wear on the left side of the vehicle. The noise became more noticeable when I rotated the tires from back to front. I got out my level and put it on the wheels. It appears that there is too much negative camber on the left rear.

That is not a camber issue, bet you have too much toe out on the left rear, and the tread has uneven wear. Guaranteed.

Camber does not wear out tires, toe does. When the toe is off, you are literally dragging the tire sideways down the road.

 

[930.engineering]

Assuming one will live with the noise for a few months with new tires on the horizon, is it best to get an alignment with the new tires installed (vs. old tires), or is this a moot point? Would the alignment technician gain more insight by observing the old tires?
KInd of a dumb question, since I assume the closer alignment is done to the new tire installation = better. Just wondering if old vs. new tires affects the technician's ability to achieve best alignment.

It doesn't matter what tires are on the car, however you guessed right - it's helpful for an alignment technician to obeserve the old tires for their wear patterns. For obvious reasons new tires should benefit from a fresh in-spec alignment, but it doesn't necessarily mean to have to perform the alignment close before fitting new tires. I'd get it done now.

@ Mighty: I find it highly unlikely MParr's Tiguan suffers from toe out on rear, as it would feel extremely unstable, even scary, with some tendency to oversteer. Hard to not notice that. Both camber and toe - when excessive - can/will increase wear.

@CapriRacer: My fault, I actually confounded both.

 

[MParr]

@CapriRacer
Would the chart in “Idealized Alignment Settings” apply to my 2019 Tiguan? I am planning on having it with me to compare to the “before” alignment numbers. I intend to take the advice offered and have the technician dial it in to the lowest degree of the manufacturer’s tolerances as possible.

Barry's Tire Tech

Barry talks about 16.5

www.barrystiretech.com

 

[mightymousetech]

It doesn't matter what tires are on the car, however you guessed right - it's helpful for an alignment technician to obeserve the old tires for their wear patterns. For obvious reasons new tires should benefit from a fresh in-spec alignment, but it doesn't necessarily mean to have to perform the alignment close before fitting new tires. I'd get it done now.

@ Mighty: I find it highly unlikely MParr's Tiguan suffers from toe out on rear, as it would feel extremely unstable, even scary, with some tendency to oversteer. Hard to not notice that. Both camber and toe - when excessive - can/will increase wear.

@CapriRacer: My fault, I actually confounded both.

99% of drivers would not notice it. I see it many times every single day.

 

[Jetronic]

That is not a camber issue, bet you have too much toe out on the left rear, and the tread has uneven wear. Guaranteed.

Camber does not wear out tires, toe does. When the toe is off, you are literally dragging the tire sideways down the road.

I'm not familiar with the car in question, but @930.engineering said the toe and camber are kinda linked. Could be either way I suppose but on my car, more negative camber = more toe-in. You still get inner tyre wear with toe-in or -out due to the camber.

With just negative camber but toe in the acceptable range the wear goes across the whole tread and much slower

 

[MParr]

I see quite a few European cars running around with their rear wheels leaned in at the top. Is that their nature?

 

[mightymousetech]

I'm not familiar with the car in question, but @930.engineering said the toe and camber are kinda linked. Could be either way I suppose but on my car, more negative camber = more toe-in. You still get inner tyre wear with toe-in or -out due to the camber.

With just negative camber but toe in the acceptable range the wear goes across the whole tread and much slower

As toe goes further negative, (does not actually have to be negative, just further negative than spec) tire wear will be more concentrated on the inner edge, as toe goes more positive, it will concentrate the wear on the outer edge. This wear is much more pronounced than camber wear.

Think of a round eraser on the end of a pencil. Roll the pencil flat (0 toe, 0 camber) no eraser material comes off. Now, lift the pencil so just the edge of the pencil is touching (lots of camber, 0 toe) and roll it, no eraser material comes off) Lastly, drag the eraser along the paper (lots of toe), and that’s when you see eraser bits coming off.

That is toe wear.

 

[demarpaint]

I going to make an appointment for an alignment. Will any competent alignment shop do or will it have to go to a VW dealership?

Tough one. Finding a competent tire/alignment shop around me is like finding a winning lottery ticket, hopefully it is better by you. Good luck!

 

[CapriRacer]

@CapriRacer
Would the chart in “Idealized Alignment Settings” apply to my 2019 Tiguan? I am planning on having it with me to compare to the “before” alignment numbers. I intend to take the advice offered and have the technician dial it in to the lowest degree of the manufacturer’s tolerances as possible.

Barry's Tire Tech

Barry talks about 16.5

www.barrystiretech.com

I only published that webpage so that I could talk about what I learned and how I learned it. It should only be consulted if you are struggling with unknowledge and/or unreliable specs. You aren't! You have at least a good set of specs and a bunch of people here who have given you lots to think about.

 

[930.engineering]

I see quite a few European cars running around with their rear wheels leaned in at the top. Is that their nature?

That's negative camber. It provides better traction at high cornering speeds and since negative camber is less on front and more on rear, it makes for a safe mild understeering cornering ability. Reducing the difference between front and rear would make the car corner more neutrally. You want a family car to behave stable and safe though. Remember emergency situations vary greatly, it's most often not a constant radius/constant speed constellation, but highly dynamic. Even more grip level varies vastly (wet, dry, ice). This can cause more understeer and also excessive oversteer, which has to be avoided under any circunstances. That's why some "understeer margin" is required.

 

[930.engineering]

Tough one. Finding a competent tire/alignment shop around me is like finding a winning lottery ticket, hopefully it is better by you. Good luck!

Sadly that's true.

 

[MParr]

Sadly that's true.

Luckily, I have an old friend that’s been in the tire business for a long long time. He started working in his dad’s tire shop. He had his own tire shop. Now, he works for a large tire distributor in this area. I talked with him and he directed me to a place. They have the new Hunter Elite machine. Maybe they can get it right. I’m planning on being there early Tuesday morning. The bad thing is, it’s 35 miles away.