I totally agree but also the trade policies (and probably taxes and regulations) don't allow for a level playing field for a company that doesn't want to offshore. It was the trade policies that allowed and created the mess. When those responsible for setting trade policy are basically on the payroll for interests that want "free trade" that's what you get.
Times change, many refuse to change with them
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Originally Posted By: Spazdog
What works in Germany will not work in the US. They are largely an ethnically homogenous society.
Just ask any Turkish immigrant there. You could be a 3rd generation German Turk and speak perfect German and still not get a job that you are qualified for.
So who gets excluded here?
Very true...and it is much the same way in Japan, if not worse, as far as exclusionary practices go.
What works in Germany will not work in the US. They are largely an ethnically homogenous society.
Just ask any Turkish immigrant there. You could be a 3rd generation German Turk and speak perfect German and still not get a job that you are qualified for.
So who gets excluded here?
Very true...and it is much the same way in Japan, if not worse, as far as exclusionary practices go.
For those of you who support the Union position in this situation....ask yourself this.
If the 70% of the UAW workers who are still making the $28/hr plus bennies think that $14 is too low a starting wage...Why didnt they negotiate a contract where they dropped their pay down to $25 or $26 per hour and then raise the starting wage to around $18/hr???
Seems to me those at the top of the seniority heap are unwilling to give a little back so their union brothers can make a better wage. Why is that? Maybe they feel $14/hr is adequate for a starting wage? CYA mentality at the UAW, nothing new...I say the 70% drops down to $26/hr and then raise the starting pay to $16-$18/hr...let them vote on that and you'll see just how much the older UAW membership cares about the next generation of workers...they dont!
If the 70% of the UAW workers who are still making the $28/hr plus bennies think that $14 is too low a starting wage...Why didnt they negotiate a contract where they dropped their pay down to $25 or $26 per hour and then raise the starting wage to around $18/hr???
Seems to me those at the top of the seniority heap are unwilling to give a little back so their union brothers can make a better wage. Why is that? Maybe they feel $14/hr is adequate for a starting wage? CYA mentality at the UAW, nothing new...I say the 70% drops down to $26/hr and then raise the starting pay to $16-$18/hr...let them vote on that and you'll see just how much the older UAW membership cares about the next generation of workers...they dont!
Originally Posted By: LT4 Vette
Quote:
The inescapable truth is that the union priced themselves out of the market and their workers were being paid far more than their productivity was worth. This caused the collapse of the company they worked for and, if not for the American tax payer, none of these workers would have a job or pension.
Amen to that.
100% blame goes to those Good Ole Union boys who unmercilessly tightened the noose around the neck of their company with so many financial constraints that they put themselves out of work. You really can't feel sorry for them one bit. Unions only destroy American jobs and companies.
Then explain why the predominately non union textile industry disappeared from the USA.
Quote:
The inescapable truth is that the union priced themselves out of the market and their workers were being paid far more than their productivity was worth. This caused the collapse of the company they worked for and, if not for the American tax payer, none of these workers would have a job or pension.
Amen to that.
100% blame goes to those Good Ole Union boys who unmercilessly tightened the noose around the neck of their company with so many financial constraints that they put themselves out of work. You really can't feel sorry for them one bit. Unions only destroy American jobs and companies.
Then explain why the predominately non union textile industry disappeared from the USA.
Originally Posted By: grampi
All this outsourcing comes down to one thing; greed. Nothing more, nothing less. Once businesses got a taste of the kind of profit margins they can have when they have their products made by slave laborists, they were bitten by the greed bug, so now they all do it. Ceo's and other corporate execs are no longer happy with making reasonable (though still high compared to what middle class employees earn) slaries, they now think they all have to make as much as oil company execs make. $10 million a year is no longer enough for them, they have to make $100 million a year. They're always giving the sorry excuse that they can't afford to pay their employees decent wages and provide benfits as that would force them to go under, when the reality is, they just don't want to do it because it cuts into their insane profits.
Agree. Seems to me like they could hire a cHINESE EXEC A LOT CHEAPER THAN TENS OF MILLIONS AND HE'D PROBABLY DO JUST AS GOOD A JOB.
All this outsourcing comes down to one thing; greed. Nothing more, nothing less. Once businesses got a taste of the kind of profit margins they can have when they have their products made by slave laborists, they were bitten by the greed bug, so now they all do it. Ceo's and other corporate execs are no longer happy with making reasonable (though still high compared to what middle class employees earn) slaries, they now think they all have to make as much as oil company execs make. $10 million a year is no longer enough for them, they have to make $100 million a year. They're always giving the sorry excuse that they can't afford to pay their employees decent wages and provide benfits as that would force them to go under, when the reality is, they just don't want to do it because it cuts into their insane profits.
Agree. Seems to me like they could hire a cHINESE EXEC A LOT CHEAPER THAN TENS OF MILLIONS AND HE'D PROBABLY DO JUST AS GOOD A JOB.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: Brons2
Is this some sort of joke? German store shelves have just as many Chinese products on them as our stores do, if not more. I have traveled extensively in Germany and have seen it with my own eyes. The importing relationships between China and the EU are similar to those with the US.
No, no joke. Perhaps it depends on where you shop?
Question: How many hardware stores can you pop-in to in your neighbourhood and pick up an entire metric wrench set for under $50.00 that are US made?
Yet that's an easy task in Germany.
I'm not saying they don't import goods; they obviously do. But that they have a much healthier industry of their own that isn't outsourced, that allows products like the wrench set I have for example, to be sold on their shelves at a reasonable price because that's what the population WANTS.
Quote:
Yes.
Yes, it is.
Germany is a net exporter of industrial finished products, but that being said, there's plenty of Chinese trinkets floating around there.
I'm not thinking trinkets, I'm thinking larger industry. That being said, how about another example, what about Japan? How much Chinese stuff do you see there (serious question, I've never been)?
It just seems that there is a trend in North America (and I've stated this before) to bash our own products, whilst praising those coming from overseas. In particular, those coming from Japan.
I feel like I'm in a minority because I prefer products engineered and manufactured in North America. I don't think that's healthy.
Is this some sort of joke? German store shelves have just as many Chinese products on them as our stores do, if not more. I have traveled extensively in Germany and have seen it with my own eyes. The importing relationships between China and the EU are similar to those with the US.
No, no joke. Perhaps it depends on where you shop?
Question: How many hardware stores can you pop-in to in your neighbourhood and pick up an entire metric wrench set for under $50.00 that are US made?
Yet that's an easy task in Germany.
I'm not saying they don't import goods; they obviously do. But that they have a much healthier industry of their own that isn't outsourced, that allows products like the wrench set I have for example, to be sold on their shelves at a reasonable price because that's what the population WANTS.
Quote:
Yes.
Yes, it is.
Germany is a net exporter of industrial finished products, but that being said, there's plenty of Chinese trinkets floating around there.
I'm not thinking trinkets, I'm thinking larger industry. That being said, how about another example, what about Japan? How much Chinese stuff do you see there (serious question, I've never been)?
It just seems that there is a trend in North America (and I've stated this before) to bash our own products, whilst praising those coming from overseas. In particular, those coming from Japan.
I feel like I'm in a minority because I prefer products engineered and manufactured in North America. I don't think that's healthy.
It's all Henry Ford's fault.
First he sued and won against the automotive trust that claimed the rights to all automotive patents. That group had quotas on the amount of cars built in the USA so that the common man could never purchase one.
Then he consistantly lowered the price of the Model T while simultaneously increasing the wages of his workers.
Bar was set too high right there.
First he sued and won against the automotive trust that claimed the rights to all automotive patents. That group had quotas on the amount of cars built in the USA so that the common man could never purchase one.
Then he consistantly lowered the price of the Model T while simultaneously increasing the wages of his workers.
Bar was set too high right there.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: Brons2
Is this some sort of joke? German store shelves have just as many Chinese products on them as our stores do, if not more. I have traveled extensively in Germany and have seen it with my own eyes. The importing relationships between China and the EU are similar to those with the US.
No, no joke. Perhaps it depends on where you shop?
Question: How many hardware stores can you pop-in to in your neighbourhood and pick up an entire metric wrench set for under $50.00 that are US made?
Yet that's an easy task in Germany.
I'm not saying they don't import goods; they obviously do. But that they have a much healthier industry of their own that isn't outsourced, that allows products like the wrench set I have for example, to be sold on their shelves at a reasonable price because that's what the population WANTS.
Quote:
Yes.
Yes, it is.
Germany is a net exporter of industrial finished products, but that being said, there's plenty of Chinese trinkets floating around there.
I'm not thinking trinkets, I'm thinking larger industry. That being said, how about another example, what about Japan? How much Chinese stuff do you see there (serious question, I've never been)?
It just seems that there is a trend in North America (and I've stated this before) to bash our own products, whilst praising those coming from overseas. In particular, those coming from Japan.
I feel like I'm in a minority because I prefer products engineered and manufactured in North America. I don't think that's healthy.
I agree with your last statement somewhat. I don't feel that people bash products made in N/A I honestly feel that people don't care about quality anymore and want to satisfy their hunger for consumer goods in the now and cheap. I remember when my parents bought their dining room set around 25 years ago. They bought it from a local business who has been making furniture for over 150 years. Sure, they paid quite a bit for it but they saved up to buy the set( a concept unheard of today, saving up for something). Guess what, the factory closed up a couple of years ago because they could not compete with the Chinese. Cheaper [censored] put them out of business. These were not Union employees that destroyed that business. It all comes down to the consumer. As long as consumers buy cheap goods we will lose more and more manufacturing each year. It does not matter if someone at the plant makes $14 or $25/hr. We cannot compete against 3rd world countries paying their employees a buck a day with no enviromental constraints and safety constraints. We should all blame ourselves.
Originally Posted By: Brons2
Is this some sort of joke? German store shelves have just as many Chinese products on them as our stores do, if not more. I have traveled extensively in Germany and have seen it with my own eyes. The importing relationships between China and the EU are similar to those with the US.
No, no joke. Perhaps it depends on where you shop?
Question: How many hardware stores can you pop-in to in your neighbourhood and pick up an entire metric wrench set for under $50.00 that are US made?
Yet that's an easy task in Germany.
I'm not saying they don't import goods; they obviously do. But that they have a much healthier industry of their own that isn't outsourced, that allows products like the wrench set I have for example, to be sold on their shelves at a reasonable price because that's what the population WANTS.
Quote:
Yes.
Yes, it is.
Germany is a net exporter of industrial finished products, but that being said, there's plenty of Chinese trinkets floating around there.
I'm not thinking trinkets, I'm thinking larger industry. That being said, how about another example, what about Japan? How much Chinese stuff do you see there (serious question, I've never been)?
It just seems that there is a trend in North America (and I've stated this before) to bash our own products, whilst praising those coming from overseas. In particular, those coming from Japan.
I feel like I'm in a minority because I prefer products engineered and manufactured in North America. I don't think that's healthy.
I agree with your last statement somewhat. I don't feel that people bash products made in N/A I honestly feel that people don't care about quality anymore and want to satisfy their hunger for consumer goods in the now and cheap. I remember when my parents bought their dining room set around 25 years ago. They bought it from a local business who has been making furniture for over 150 years. Sure, they paid quite a bit for it but they saved up to buy the set( a concept unheard of today, saving up for something). Guess what, the factory closed up a couple of years ago because they could not compete with the Chinese. Cheaper [censored] put them out of business. These were not Union employees that destroyed that business. It all comes down to the consumer. As long as consumers buy cheap goods we will lose more and more manufacturing each year. It does not matter if someone at the plant makes $14 or $25/hr. We cannot compete against 3rd world countries paying their employees a buck a day with no enviromental constraints and safety constraints. We should all blame ourselves.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Autobahn88
[ As long as consumers buy cheap goods we will lose more and more manufacturing each year. It does not matter if someone at the plant makes $14 or $25/hr. We cannot compete against 3rd world countries paying their employees a buck a day with no enviromental constraints and safety constraints. We should all blame ourselves.
It isn't that consumers in the USA just gradually over time desired to buy cheap [censored]...it has been "programmed into them" by the media, and the popular culture, this isn't a random thing either, I believe that in order for the elite to attain their New World Economic Order, they have educated the consumer to behave exactly the way they want them to, so it achieves their end game.
If you look at the dumbing down of our education system and what it produces it is no surprise that most consumers have had the ability to discern and capacity for independent thought bred and programmed out of them.
[ As long as consumers buy cheap goods we will lose more and more manufacturing each year. It does not matter if someone at the plant makes $14 or $25/hr. We cannot compete against 3rd world countries paying their employees a buck a day with no enviromental constraints and safety constraints. We should all blame ourselves.
It isn't that consumers in the USA just gradually over time desired to buy cheap [censored]...it has been "programmed into them" by the media, and the popular culture, this isn't a random thing either, I believe that in order for the elite to attain their New World Economic Order, they have educated the consumer to behave exactly the way they want them to, so it achieves their end game.
If you look at the dumbing down of our education system and what it produces it is no surprise that most consumers have had the ability to discern and capacity for independent thought bred and programmed out of them.
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Originally Posted By: mechanicx
I don't know want point you are trying to make but the health professions' pay and many others are not really marketed based because of insurance or other indirect payer schemes. Say what you want but the ADA and AMA are the ultimate unions. They completely control supply and demand of workers in so many ways and at some many levels.
It is not mandatory that doctors be a member of the AMA. The people who control state licensing for doctors control supply and demand, not the AMA.
To a lesser degree, the state boards who control who can offer medical school curriculum also control the supply of doctors. For example in my state, if you wish to set up a new medical school somewhere where one doesn't already exist, you must gain permission from the Texas Higher Education Coordinating Board. (http://www.thecb.state.tx.us). Medical schools have been established in Lubbock and El Paso in recent years in order to address a perceived market demand for more doctors in those markets.
The argument about insurance distorting the market, I agree with you there. Doctors are continually marking things up to see if the insurance will increase the fraction of the billed amount that they actually pay.
For example, I recently dated a pediatrician, who said that her group of doctors billed around $200 for a 15 minute visit whereas the insurance company actually paid $60. It's a big shell game, and when Joe Sixpack goes in with no insurance, they attempt to bill the same $200 that they know the insurance companies only pay $60 on. There's not enough transparency, and too much distortion going on.
Thankfully there is a growing retail market for medical services springing up. If they don't want to price themselves out of the marketplace they will have to charge reasonable fees to their cash and carry customers.
Quote:
Labor supply and demand does not apply when there is offshoring and bringing in foreign workers.
Sure it does. There are difficulties with offshoring company operations in areas such as IT, which I speak of because I am most familiar with it. The outsourcing vendors promise you the world, and promise it to you more cheaply than you're doing it now.
But...you have problems with communications, in that you're talking often over Internet links, to people in different timezones, who's native language is often not English.
Management is not directly in control of the people who are working with your critical data, they report to someone at the outsourcing company. Who is holding those people's feet to the fire on following company procedures, and delivering project deliverables on time?
For that reason it is critical that you have a good customer relationship manager from the outsourcing company, someone who has the wherewithal to work the corporate machinery at that company. Some who can kick [censored] and take names, and then report the results back to you with a smile.
There's a cost associated with all this, and that cost is directly comparable to what it cost to run the [censored] thing ourselves in house. THAT is where your competitive labor market comes into play vs. outsourcing. In our case, it costs us 50% MORE to outsource our server environment. We'd love to back out and hire back people to run it ourselves, but it's a 7 year contract with the parent company so in the end it's up to them. We can't just unilaterally back out as a division, no matter how much we might love to.
US workers should be given an opportunity to sharpen their pencils before this offshoring is going on. However, if they have been and they still don't see the writing on the wall then things might not go their way.
guess that's it for now....
I don't know want point you are trying to make but the health professions' pay and many others are not really marketed based because of insurance or other indirect payer schemes. Say what you want but the ADA and AMA are the ultimate unions. They completely control supply and demand of workers in so many ways and at some many levels.
It is not mandatory that doctors be a member of the AMA. The people who control state licensing for doctors control supply and demand, not the AMA.
To a lesser degree, the state boards who control who can offer medical school curriculum also control the supply of doctors. For example in my state, if you wish to set up a new medical school somewhere where one doesn't already exist, you must gain permission from the Texas Higher Education Coordinating Board. (http://www.thecb.state.tx.us). Medical schools have been established in Lubbock and El Paso in recent years in order to address a perceived market demand for more doctors in those markets.
The argument about insurance distorting the market, I agree with you there. Doctors are continually marking things up to see if the insurance will increase the fraction of the billed amount that they actually pay.
For example, I recently dated a pediatrician, who said that her group of doctors billed around $200 for a 15 minute visit whereas the insurance company actually paid $60. It's a big shell game, and when Joe Sixpack goes in with no insurance, they attempt to bill the same $200 that they know the insurance companies only pay $60 on. There's not enough transparency, and too much distortion going on.
Thankfully there is a growing retail market for medical services springing up. If they don't want to price themselves out of the marketplace they will have to charge reasonable fees to their cash and carry customers.
Quote:
Labor supply and demand does not apply when there is offshoring and bringing in foreign workers.
Sure it does. There are difficulties with offshoring company operations in areas such as IT, which I speak of because I am most familiar with it. The outsourcing vendors promise you the world, and promise it to you more cheaply than you're doing it now.
But...you have problems with communications, in that you're talking often over Internet links, to people in different timezones, who's native language is often not English.
Management is not directly in control of the people who are working with your critical data, they report to someone at the outsourcing company. Who is holding those people's feet to the fire on following company procedures, and delivering project deliverables on time?
For that reason it is critical that you have a good customer relationship manager from the outsourcing company, someone who has the wherewithal to work the corporate machinery at that company. Some who can kick [censored] and take names, and then report the results back to you with a smile.
There's a cost associated with all this, and that cost is directly comparable to what it cost to run the [censored] thing ourselves in house. THAT is where your competitive labor market comes into play vs. outsourcing. In our case, it costs us 50% MORE to outsource our server environment. We'd love to back out and hire back people to run it ourselves, but it's a 7 year contract with the parent company so in the end it's up to them. We can't just unilaterally back out as a division, no matter how much we might love to.
US workers should be given an opportunity to sharpen their pencils before this offshoring is going on. However, if they have been and they still don't see the writing on the wall then things might not go their way.
guess that's it for now....
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
No, no joke. Perhaps it depends on where you shop?
Question: How many hardware stores can you pop-in to in your neighbourhood and pick up an entire metric wrench set for under $50.00 that are US made?
Yet that's an easy task in Germany.
I've never really shopped for hardware before in Germany, but in about 60 days, I am going to put your theory to the test. I will see if I can buy a metric toolset for 50EUR that has the fit and finish quality of Snap On and the like. Should be interesting.
Of course 50EUR is $70 at the current exchange rate as of this very moment (1.399$=1.0EUR) at 10/10/10 at 8:21PM.
Quote:
I'm not thinking trinkets, I'm thinking larger industry. That being said, how about another example, what about Japan? How much Chinese stuff do you see there (serious question, I've never been)?
It just seems that there is a trend in North America (and I've stated this before) to bash our own products, whilst praising those coming from overseas. In particular, those coming from Japan.
I feel like I'm in a minority because I prefer products engineered and manufactured in North America. I don't think that's healthy.
I don't know anything about the domestic market in Japan, never been there. Japan is far more homogeneous than Germany, so I would imagine that the domestic content on store shelves is higher than other places.
All things being equal, I would also prefer a product built in North America. But often, all things aren't equal, much as people would lead you to believe they are.
Consider my car. I felt that the best car for my needs was a Euro style MPV. Ford and GM sell them overseas. There is the Focus C-MAX and the Opel Meriva. However, they don't import them to the US, for whatever reason. So I was left with two choices, the Mazda 5 and the Kia Rondo. Those are the only ones that are imported to the US.
On the surface, I would prefer the Mazda, but I am 6'7" and my knees jammed into the dash. So the Kia won out. It's a very versatile vehicle and meets my needs well. I can get 8' long 2x4s into it, or carry 5 people in reasonable comfort. It gets decent (not great) gas mileage as well, and does OK merging into traffic.
So in short, I need products that:
-fit my needs
-are reasonably priced
-have decent reliability
If American companies fit those needs, then I would be happy to purchase their products. But, I'm not going to try to fit a square peg into a round hole, either.
This was GM's problem IMO...they killed themselves with marketing focus groups and such. Everything got dumbed down to the lowest common denominator. They quit innovating. They seem to be going in a new direction now with a lot of new product. Hope that works out well for them.
I'm waiting a few more years to get a newer car. Will be interesting to see what is out there at that time. I would consider GM then, if they have a product that meets my needs.
No, no joke. Perhaps it depends on where you shop?
Question: How many hardware stores can you pop-in to in your neighbourhood and pick up an entire metric wrench set for under $50.00 that are US made?
Yet that's an easy task in Germany.
I've never really shopped for hardware before in Germany, but in about 60 days, I am going to put your theory to the test. I will see if I can buy a metric toolset for 50EUR that has the fit and finish quality of Snap On and the like. Should be interesting.
Of course 50EUR is $70 at the current exchange rate as of this very moment (1.399$=1.0EUR) at 10/10/10 at 8:21PM.
Quote:
I'm not thinking trinkets, I'm thinking larger industry. That being said, how about another example, what about Japan? How much Chinese stuff do you see there (serious question, I've never been)?
It just seems that there is a trend in North America (and I've stated this before) to bash our own products, whilst praising those coming from overseas. In particular, those coming from Japan.
I feel like I'm in a minority because I prefer products engineered and manufactured in North America. I don't think that's healthy.
I don't know anything about the domestic market in Japan, never been there. Japan is far more homogeneous than Germany, so I would imagine that the domestic content on store shelves is higher than other places.
All things being equal, I would also prefer a product built in North America. But often, all things aren't equal, much as people would lead you to believe they are.
Consider my car. I felt that the best car for my needs was a Euro style MPV. Ford and GM sell them overseas. There is the Focus C-MAX and the Opel Meriva. However, they don't import them to the US, for whatever reason. So I was left with two choices, the Mazda 5 and the Kia Rondo. Those are the only ones that are imported to the US.
On the surface, I would prefer the Mazda, but I am 6'7" and my knees jammed into the dash. So the Kia won out. It's a very versatile vehicle and meets my needs well. I can get 8' long 2x4s into it, or carry 5 people in reasonable comfort. It gets decent (not great) gas mileage as well, and does OK merging into traffic.
So in short, I need products that:
-fit my needs
-are reasonably priced
-have decent reliability
If American companies fit those needs, then I would be happy to purchase their products. But, I'm not going to try to fit a square peg into a round hole, either.
This was GM's problem IMO...they killed themselves with marketing focus groups and such. Everything got dumbed down to the lowest common denominator. They quit innovating. They seem to be going in a new direction now with a lot of new product. Hope that works out well for them.
I'm waiting a few more years to get a newer car. Will be interesting to see what is out there at that time. I would consider GM then, if they have a product that meets my needs.
Last edited:
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: Brons2
I've never really shopped for hardware before in Germany, but in about 60 days, I am going to put your theory to the test. I will see if I can buy a metric toolset for 50EUR that has the fit and finish quality of Snap On and the like. Should be interesting.
Of course 50EUR is $70 at the current exchange rate as of this very moment (1.399$=1.0EUR) at 10/10/10 at 8:21PM.
Not toolset, wrench-set.
http://www.gedore.de/en/products/group_articles.html?pm_id=82764&oe_opt[list_set]=14221,82761,82762,82764
Think that is the set right there actually.
Excellent wrench set!
I've never really shopped for hardware before in Germany, but in about 60 days, I am going to put your theory to the test. I will see if I can buy a metric toolset for 50EUR that has the fit and finish quality of Snap On and the like. Should be interesting.
Of course 50EUR is $70 at the current exchange rate as of this very moment (1.399$=1.0EUR) at 10/10/10 at 8:21PM.
Not toolset, wrench-set.
http://www.gedore.de/en/products/group_articles.html?pm_id=82764&oe_opt[list_set]=14221,82761,82762,82764
Think that is the set right there actually.
Excellent wrench set!
Your post made me curious as to where my own tools were made; they are all Mastercraft (Canadian Tire's lifetime warrantied in-house brand that is similar to Sears Craftsman for quality, but can be had for better sale prices), and I'd taken it for granted they were made here. Anyway I looked at the only thing that still has its sticker on it (my Mastercraft toolbox), and it says 'imported by Mastercraft Canada). No mention of where it was imported from, but China is a good bet.
The tools are well made, and all bought on good sale prices, but it was a bit disappointing to look at that tag and realize they are probably all imported; though this is not, in hindsight, unrealistic to expect. Our manufacturing sector all but disappeared decades ago. What's left is a shadow of what once existed.
Genuine made in North America products are a dying breed. You have to look hard just to find to find the tag; and too often things labeled as made in Canada or the U.S.A. are, in fact, only packaged or have the final assembly done here.
-Spyder
The tools are well made, and all bought on good sale prices, but it was a bit disappointing to look at that tag and realize they are probably all imported; though this is not, in hindsight, unrealistic to expect. Our manufacturing sector all but disappeared decades ago. What's left is a shadow of what once existed.
Genuine made in North America products are a dying breed. You have to look hard just to find to find the tag; and too often things labeled as made in Canada or the U.S.A. are, in fact, only packaged or have the final assembly done here.
-Spyder
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: Spazdog
This is going to be an unpopular statement,
but the best hand tools are union made in the United States.
I'll gladly compare any other country's tools to US made Klein, Snap-On, Matco, MAC...etc...
Not going to disagree at all. A good 75% of my tools are Snap-On. Most of them old, and made in Canada.
This wrench set was a gift from my German friend, and I must say that the quality is FAR greater than the comparable Mastercraft wrench set, which retails for $65.00.
And herein lies my point. The Germans can manufacture and sell a very high quality wrench set for less than $50.00CDN (much less, I think this was like 25 euros or something but I can't find the box) that is BETTER than the wrench set we can buy at our local "Canadian" retailer that is manufactured in China. And gets sold for $65.00.
Somebody please try to explain this as being something other than greed.
This is going to be an unpopular statement,
but the best hand tools are union made in the United States.
I'll gladly compare any other country's tools to US made Klein, Snap-On, Matco, MAC...etc...
Not going to disagree at all. A good 75% of my tools are Snap-On. Most of them old, and made in Canada.
This wrench set was a gift from my German friend, and I must say that the quality is FAR greater than the comparable Mastercraft wrench set, which retails for $65.00.
And herein lies my point. The Germans can manufacture and sell a very high quality wrench set for less than $50.00CDN (much less, I think this was like 25 euros or something but I can't find the box) that is BETTER than the wrench set we can buy at our local "Canadian" retailer that is manufactured in China. And gets sold for $65.00.
Somebody please try to explain this as being something other than greed.
Originally Posted By: Brons2
As for the ADA and the AMA, please! You want to compare trade associations to unions? Yes, they engage in advocacy, but pay is purely set at whatever pay rate the practitioner can get the market to bear. Membership in trade associations is OPTIONAL.
The ADA and AMA are definitely quasi-union organizations. They control wages by controlling labor. Why do you think it's so hard for a university to be accredited for an MD or DDS program? With so few universities offering such programs and so few applicants being accepted, of course you end up with a labor shortgage. And it's not like they're denying entry of only dumb people. I knew some VERY smart people who could not get into medical school.
Quote:
http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/about-ama.shtml
Since 1847 the American Medical Association (AMA) has had one mission: to promote the art and science of medicine and the betterment of public health.
In reality this should read "to promote medicine as well as protect the salaries of physicians". As an aside, physicians I know on a personal level are among the greediest people I've ever met. Comparable to lawyers
As for the ADA and the AMA, please! You want to compare trade associations to unions? Yes, they engage in advocacy, but pay is purely set at whatever pay rate the practitioner can get the market to bear. Membership in trade associations is OPTIONAL.
The ADA and AMA are definitely quasi-union organizations. They control wages by controlling labor. Why do you think it's so hard for a university to be accredited for an MD or DDS program? With so few universities offering such programs and so few applicants being accepted, of course you end up with a labor shortgage. And it's not like they're denying entry of only dumb people. I knew some VERY smart people who could not get into medical school.
Quote:
http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/about-ama.shtml
Since 1847 the American Medical Association (AMA) has had one mission: to promote the art and science of medicine and the betterment of public health.
In reality this should read "to promote medicine as well as protect the salaries of physicians". As an aside, physicians I know on a personal level are among the greediest people I've ever met. Comparable to lawyers
There is much finger pointing in a down economy. There is much blame to go around, though.
Unions have, indeed, priced themselves out of jobs. The economy has become one of the world, and we compete against people hungry for what we have had for decades, or even centuries. I don't have any problem with the union worker, they are proud of what unions have done for them. Unfortunately, they have been had by the union leadership -- leadership that lives well and spends workers dues to buy favor in the congress, while the union pensions go unfunded. A revolt is order by the rank and file.
Beaurocracies exist for no other reason than to perpetuate themselves and grow. They feed upon the great unwashed masses and get milked by those that steer them. The union leadership, large corporations, government, and any organization that has lived long enough and been fed enough money will grow until it becomes more of a threat than a force for good.
A Great Pruning is in order, I think, for many an unwieldy beaurocracy.
Unions have, indeed, priced themselves out of jobs. The economy has become one of the world, and we compete against people hungry for what we have had for decades, or even centuries. I don't have any problem with the union worker, they are proud of what unions have done for them. Unfortunately, they have been had by the union leadership -- leadership that lives well and spends workers dues to buy favor in the congress, while the union pensions go unfunded. A revolt is order by the rank and file.
Beaurocracies exist for no other reason than to perpetuate themselves and grow. They feed upon the great unwashed masses and get milked by those that steer them. The union leadership, large corporations, government, and any organization that has lived long enough and been fed enough money will grow until it becomes more of a threat than a force for good.
A Great Pruning is in order, I think, for many an unwieldy beaurocracy.
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