I have a 2001 VW Passat with the sludge-prone Audi 1.8T engine and 6 years left on my powertrain warranty. I have to use a VW 502.00 oil on a 5K mile /8K km or shorter OCI (I use 3-3.5K miles / 5-6K km because of urban driving), and I have yet to see any good reason not to use Mobil1 0W-40, particularly since I recently convinced PepBoys to start carrying it.
Time to Bash Mobil 1
- Thread starter Bugshu
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tdi jerry
$100 Site Donor 2025
mobil 1 0w40 does meet vw 502/505 spec. i use it in my 03 vw beetle 2.0 eng. i have used it from the first oil change. the car now has 30,000 mile & uses no oil with a 5,000 oil change
Point of order, Mr Chairman
>>>M1 also offers more products in the USA then any of the others M1 0W20 soon to be 5W20,0W40,0W30,5W30,5W40,10W30,15W50($3.38-$4.29), Delvac-1, Synthetic ATF($5), Synthetic Gear lube($7), MC 5000 5W30,10W30,10W40($1.29-$1.49),MC7000 5W30,10W30,10W40($1.49-$1.69),Regular ATF, Regular Gear Lubes, Extended Performance 5W30, 10W30, 10W40, 15W50($4-$5.39), M1R 0W30.
Last time I looked at an AMSOIL price list, there were 20 different engine oils (not counting the 5 different 2 cycle oils), 3 ATFs, 6 gear lubes, and a bunch of greases.
>>>M1 also offers more products in the USA then any of the others M1 0W20 soon to be 5W20,0W40,0W30,5W30,5W40,10W30,15W50($3.38-$4.29), Delvac-1, Synthetic ATF($5), Synthetic Gear lube($7), MC 5000 5W30,10W30,10W40($1.29-$1.49),MC7000 5W30,10W30,10W40($1.49-$1.69),Regular ATF, Regular Gear Lubes, Extended Performance 5W30, 10W30, 10W40, 15W50($4-$5.39), M1R 0W30.
Last time I looked at an AMSOIL price list, there were 20 different engine oils (not counting the 5 different 2 cycle oils), 3 ATFs, 6 gear lubes, and a bunch of greases.
I checked the Wal-Mart and M1 is $4.74 per bottle and EP is $5.36. A lot of people that can afford $4.74 per quart may not blink an eye at paying $5.36 despite the fact that more likely than not they wont go 15K miles between drains. I dont see any benefit to the new EP oil until you go beyond 7500K miles on your drain and most wont do it. Those planning on 3K drains dont need calcium and boron overkill in their oils.
I still havent seen M1 anywhere near $3 - $3.50 per quart. For me, price isnt a huge issue and I dont mind paying a buck extra per quart if its an oil that I like.
Im not sure that a trend has developed but it could be argued that much of the eye popping nature of the GC and OW20 M1 Uoa's are due to the OW rating of the oil. It seems that both might be going the way of the dinosaur though larger autozones might still carry the GC. As far as I know Castrol hasnt announced that GC has been discontinued.
In the time that Ive been here there have only been perhaps a couple of UOA's of Royal Purple 5W20 and maybe a handful of 5W30. Most RP UOA's are of their 21 racing oil and 10W rated oils. A couple of fuel dilution issues tarnished a couple of RP UOA's and caused some shear and some took it to mean that all the RP oils sheared. There are literally hundreds of UOA's on M1 and the sample size is larger. Its hard to totally write off RP when the sample size of the UOA's is low. I imagine that it would be kind of hard for most people to find bad UOA's of RP 5W-20 or 5W-30 listed at BITOG. 10W and RP21 UOA's are a different animal.
My point is entirely that M1 would have done better to upgrade their M1 standard line rather than downgrade the thing to make the new EP line look really good.
Im guessing that most Wal-Marts wont carry 3 lines of M1 30 viscosity oil with OW-30, 5W-30, and 10-30 and more likely than not the OW oil will be just as hard to find as German Castrol. 5W-30 is a crowded field and M1 really has to stand out to maintain its superior reputation.
I wouldnt mind buying RP 5W-20 over the M1 product and if I saw Pennzoil Platinum OW-20 then Id pick that one over either should they put together a good solid basestock rather than group 3.
Someday the world will realize the benefits of moving down in 5W and OW ratings and right now Mobil isnt leading the charge.
Im all for more choices in motor oil and the EP lines have some usefulness. Still, Im not a believer in 10K + extended drains for MY vehicle use and I dont see Mobil improving their standard line of M1 oils. I do see some backpedaling.
Happy Motoring All,
Bugshu
I still havent seen M1 anywhere near $3 - $3.50 per quart. For me, price isnt a huge issue and I dont mind paying a buck extra per quart if its an oil that I like.
Im not sure that a trend has developed but it could be argued that much of the eye popping nature of the GC and OW20 M1 Uoa's are due to the OW rating of the oil. It seems that both might be going the way of the dinosaur though larger autozones might still carry the GC. As far as I know Castrol hasnt announced that GC has been discontinued.
In the time that Ive been here there have only been perhaps a couple of UOA's of Royal Purple 5W20 and maybe a handful of 5W30. Most RP UOA's are of their 21 racing oil and 10W rated oils. A couple of fuel dilution issues tarnished a couple of RP UOA's and caused some shear and some took it to mean that all the RP oils sheared. There are literally hundreds of UOA's on M1 and the sample size is larger. Its hard to totally write off RP when the sample size of the UOA's is low. I imagine that it would be kind of hard for most people to find bad UOA's of RP 5W-20 or 5W-30 listed at BITOG. 10W and RP21 UOA's are a different animal.
My point is entirely that M1 would have done better to upgrade their M1 standard line rather than downgrade the thing to make the new EP line look really good.
Im guessing that most Wal-Marts wont carry 3 lines of M1 30 viscosity oil with OW-30, 5W-30, and 10-30 and more likely than not the OW oil will be just as hard to find as German Castrol. 5W-30 is a crowded field and M1 really has to stand out to maintain its superior reputation.
I wouldnt mind buying RP 5W-20 over the M1 product and if I saw Pennzoil Platinum OW-20 then Id pick that one over either should they put together a good solid basestock rather than group 3.
Someday the world will realize the benefits of moving down in 5W and OW ratings and right now Mobil isnt leading the charge.
Im all for more choices in motor oil and the EP lines have some usefulness. Still, Im not a believer in 10K + extended drains for MY vehicle use and I dont see Mobil improving their standard line of M1 oils. I do see some backpedaling.
Happy Motoring All,
Bugshu
This is an interesting thread. Let's see if I can add some fuel to the fire. The main reason Mobil 1 switched to 5W20 is because the only car on the road that requires it is the Honda Hybrid. Since Ford, Honda, and now Chrysler are recommending 5W20 I can't blame them for what they did. They still make a 0W20, it's called Honda 0W20 and you can get it at the Honda dealer.
Yes, we are coming out with the Platinum 0W20 and it will clearly state that it is for the Honda Hybrid specs.
You can bet if anyone else starts recommending 0W20, everyone will jump on the band wagon.
For now, I think Mobil made the right decision. The 0W20 was their weakest selling oil. They will sell 10 time more 5W20. After all, they along with the rest of us are in the marketing business, and the more money they make, the happier the stock holders are. That's business. Every corporation does it.
And while I'm at it, I don't think for one minute that they down graded their current Mobil 1 line. Still one of the best synthetics out there.
Yes, we are coming out with the Platinum 0W20 and it will clearly state that it is for the Honda Hybrid specs.
You can bet if anyone else starts recommending 0W20, everyone will jump on the band wagon.
For now, I think Mobil made the right decision. The 0W20 was their weakest selling oil. They will sell 10 time more 5W20. After all, they along with the rest of us are in the marketing business, and the more money they make, the happier the stock holders are. That's business. Every corporation does it.
And while I'm at it, I don't think for one minute that they down graded their current Mobil 1 line. Still one of the best synthetics out there.
Hi Johnny,
On October 1st 2004, Olympic posted a VOA of M1 5W-30 SS with the following results:
Zinc: 1000
Magnesium: 20
Calcium: 3000
Phosphorous: 902
Molybdenum: 87
Boron: 182
On February 10th, Stinky posted a VOA of the current M1 5W-30 with the following results:
Zinc: 775
Magnesium: 13
Calcium: 2380
Phosphorous: 678
Molybdenum: 92
Boron: 76
Stinky also compared the M1 with the new EP VOA and the current M1 EP 5W-30 VOA showcases:
Zinc: 1058
Magnesium: 15
Calcium: 2822
Phosphorous: 948
Molybdenum: 83
Boron: 251
Ok different labs were used for these different VOA's and of course the Supersyn additive isnt included in the VOA numbers.
However, the new EP addpack looks similar to the old M1 add pack with the new formula of regular M1 taking a big overall hit on additives. The only major boost that I can see in EP versus older M1 is in Boron. Magnesium, Calcium, and Moly are all down and Zinc and Phosphorous get a slight boost.
New M1 versus old M1 showcases major drops in all additives except for a slight boost of Moly.
If these VOA's are accurate and I feel that they are then a lot of the newly enhanced additives in EP over regular M1 comes from reducing the adds in the normal traditional M1 oils. Maybe GF-4 is to blame for this but new M1 does not look to me to have the same solid add pack as the old M1. Its been reduced and downgraded.
Now when Mobil upgraded from Tri-Syn to SuperSyn the increase in adds was obvious and noticable. However next generation of GF-4 SuperSyn seems to have reduced adds.
So yes, I believe that they have downgraded their lineup of regular M1 oils. And I dont think Olympic or Stinky skewed the Voas just to confuse me.
I dont see the EP lineup boosted much over old SuperSyn technology except in Boron. What Mobil has done has been to downgrade the old SuperSyn line and then claim that the new EP line is hugely improved over the regular lineup. To me this is a marketing gimmick and advertising buzz. However, they havent informed the public about the reductions in the new GF-4 versus the old GF-3 M1 line. I think many assume that new M1 is as good as the old M1 and the VOA's might hint otherwise.
The new EP line should be fairly good and similar to what weve become used to with Mobil 1. However the current lineup does appear to have taken a hit in quality and its going to take some major league UOA reports to convince me that this was a good move and that current M1 is as good as the old M1.
Happy Motoring All,
Bugshu
On October 1st 2004, Olympic posted a VOA of M1 5W-30 SS with the following results:
Zinc: 1000
Magnesium: 20
Calcium: 3000
Phosphorous: 902
Molybdenum: 87
Boron: 182
On February 10th, Stinky posted a VOA of the current M1 5W-30 with the following results:
Zinc: 775
Magnesium: 13
Calcium: 2380
Phosphorous: 678
Molybdenum: 92
Boron: 76
Stinky also compared the M1 with the new EP VOA and the current M1 EP 5W-30 VOA showcases:
Zinc: 1058
Magnesium: 15
Calcium: 2822
Phosphorous: 948
Molybdenum: 83
Boron: 251
Ok different labs were used for these different VOA's and of course the Supersyn additive isnt included in the VOA numbers.
However, the new EP addpack looks similar to the old M1 add pack with the new formula of regular M1 taking a big overall hit on additives. The only major boost that I can see in EP versus older M1 is in Boron. Magnesium, Calcium, and Moly are all down and Zinc and Phosphorous get a slight boost.
New M1 versus old M1 showcases major drops in all additives except for a slight boost of Moly.
If these VOA's are accurate and I feel that they are then a lot of the newly enhanced additives in EP over regular M1 comes from reducing the adds in the normal traditional M1 oils. Maybe GF-4 is to blame for this but new M1 does not look to me to have the same solid add pack as the old M1. Its been reduced and downgraded.
Now when Mobil upgraded from Tri-Syn to SuperSyn the increase in adds was obvious and noticable. However next generation of GF-4 SuperSyn seems to have reduced adds.
So yes, I believe that they have downgraded their lineup of regular M1 oils. And I dont think Olympic or Stinky skewed the Voas just to confuse me.
I dont see the EP lineup boosted much over old SuperSyn technology except in Boron. What Mobil has done has been to downgrade the old SuperSyn line and then claim that the new EP line is hugely improved over the regular lineup. To me this is a marketing gimmick and advertising buzz. However, they havent informed the public about the reductions in the new GF-4 versus the old GF-3 M1 line. I think many assume that new M1 is as good as the old M1 and the VOA's might hint otherwise.
The new EP line should be fairly good and similar to what weve become used to with Mobil 1. However the current lineup does appear to have taken a hit in quality and its going to take some major league UOA reports to convince me that this was a good move and that current M1 is as good as the old M1.
Happy Motoring All,
Bugshu
I am not the biggest M1 fan in the world because my Volvo consumes twices as much M1 as any other oil I have tried including Walmart Supertech (and I have given M1 several tries, before and after Auto Rx). I also don't run it in my 1.8T VW because the UOAs are not particularly outstanding compared to other oils for this engine.
Having said that, I cannot fault Mobil for doing what they are doing. They are a business. They are not an non-profit educational institution. A business that consistently and stubbornly sticks to a product (e.g. 0w-20) for the sake of being "cutting edge" while ignoring the market place (e.g. 5w-20) is one that will die a miserable death.
As for the additive situation, I agree with JB. A VOA does not capture everything. If the quality of an oil is simply determined by the absolute level of additives that we can capture in a crude VOA, then Mobil ought to just fire all their chemists and sign up all the cheap additive suppliers they can to ratchet up the additive levels. But I doubt life is that simple. I would wait til the UOAs roll in before condemning the new Supersyn.
[ February 18, 2005, 08:57 AM: Message edited by: VeeDubb ]
Having said that, I cannot fault Mobil for doing what they are doing. They are a business. They are not an non-profit educational institution. A business that consistently and stubbornly sticks to a product (e.g. 0w-20) for the sake of being "cutting edge" while ignoring the market place (e.g. 5w-20) is one that will die a miserable death.
As for the additive situation, I agree with JB. A VOA does not capture everything. If the quality of an oil is simply determined by the absolute level of additives that we can capture in a crude VOA, then Mobil ought to just fire all their chemists and sign up all the cheap additive suppliers they can to ratchet up the additive levels. But I doubt life is that simple. I would wait til the UOAs roll in before condemning the new Supersyn.
[ February 18, 2005, 08:57 AM: Message edited by: VeeDubb ]
Bugshu,
In my experience, folks don't buy non-standard SAE grades off the shelf. My biggest sellers by far are 5w-30/10w-30/10w-40 for gas engines and 15w-40 for diesels. I've tried selling grades like 0w-30/0w-40 and 5w-40 and the stuff just sits there.
Mobil made an excellent business decision to come out with a 5w-20 - they'll probably sell five times as much.
I do think that having two Mobil 1 products is a very bad idea and will confuse folks to no end. I would have dropped the old stuff and promoted the Mobil 1, EP even for newer vehicles under warranty. Who wants to pay $4.75 for Mobils second best product?
In my experience, folks don't buy non-standard SAE grades off the shelf. My biggest sellers by far are 5w-30/10w-30/10w-40 for gas engines and 15w-40 for diesels. I've tried selling grades like 0w-30/0w-40 and 5w-40 and the stuff just sits there.
Mobil made an excellent business decision to come out with a 5w-20 - they'll probably sell five times as much.
I do think that having two Mobil 1 products is a very bad idea and will confuse folks to no end. I would have dropped the old stuff and promoted the Mobil 1, EP even for newer vehicles under warranty. Who wants to pay $4.75 for Mobils second best product?
I think that is the problem. Mobil has to put API approved oils in the dozen or so cars that come from the factory with it. They have no choice.
Mobil has HAD to comply with the API and the whole SS idea revolves around newer technology, whether it's better or not. Obviously, any major oil company could put together a stronger oil, but as we see the cut off price seems to be around $5qt and the API certainly doesn't help any.
Maybe they should have just came out with the 5000, M1 GF-4 and M1 EP. Could have said to use the Mobil 1 GF-4 for warranty drain intervals, which can vary to as high as 10k miles and keep the M1 EP line for 15k + mile drains.
Some people will never be satisfied. They live to complain. Mobil isn't perfect, but I'm just glad that we have a TRUE synthetic on the shelf for $5qt.
Obviously Mobil and Walmart don't think people want to pay $4.75 per quart for SM/GF-4 M1. That might be why the current price at Walmart is under $4.00 a quart in 5 gallon jugs.quote:
Originally posted by buster:
I think that is the problem. Mobil has to put API approved oils in the dozen or so cars that come from the factory with it. They have no choice.
Mobil has HAD to comply with the API and the whole SS idea revolves around newer technology, whether it's better or not. Obviously, any major oil company could put together a stronger oil, but as we see the cut off price seems to be around $5qt and the API certainly doesn't help any.
Maybe they should have just came out with the 5000, M1 GF-4 and M1 EP. Could have said to use the Mobil 1 GF-4 for warranty drain intervals, which can vary to as high as 10k miles and keep the M1 EP line for 15k + mile drains.
Some people will never be satisfied. They live to complain. Mobil isn't perfect, but I'm just glad that we have a TRUE synthetic on the shelf for $5qt.
I wouldn't expect that to be going up anytime soon. If it doesn't sell well vs. the EP line currently selling at a little more than $5.00 per quart I'd expect the SM/GF-4 variety to go down even further...
I think basically the GF-4 improves the dino oils but weakens the synthetics. Also remember, new additives being used as MK has discussed, can and will be more expensive. This is why you see Amsoil using older technology IMO.
BTW, Amsoil will be doing the same thing and offering a seperate line of GF-4 approved oils. It would have been probably a better idea for Mobil 1 just use the 7500 oil as their GF-4 blend. Thats another possibility.
[ February 18, 2005, 06:10 PM: Message edited by: buster ]
BTW, Amsoil will be doing the same thing and offering a seperate line of GF-4 approved oils. It would have been probably a better idea for Mobil 1 just use the 7500 oil as their GF-4 blend. Thats another possibility.
[ February 18, 2005, 06:10 PM: Message edited by: buster ]
Time to sell XOM?
I'm holding it for now, along with most of the other big oil companies, and a few drilling, exploration, pipeline, and tanker companies. Energy stocks have been very good to me over the past year or so.
Fortunately, based on a recent email exchange, I have apparently convinced PepBoys to stock Mobil 1 0W-40, starting in May. They routinely offer $4/qt. coupons, which I have been unable to use in the past, because 0W-40 is the ONLY Mobil 1 which will keep my powertrain warranty in effect. (Those of you who own VW/Audi products will appreciate that powertrain warranties are important for these cars!)
Wow! You convinced Pep Boys solo..or it just so happens Pep Boys will be carrying("will be part of an update..") M1 0w40 starting May(with all the recent motor oil line changeovers from Auto Zone to Walmart..)according to the email reply to you..in Vortex.
Our Checker store here in Broomfield had the truck/SUV 5W-40 on sale at 2.99 a quart a few months back. That's rare but often Ya can wait for a sale somewhere at 3.99 a quart which still is a great price.
The TRUE G4 AMSOIL is well over 8 bucks a quart.
bugshu, Again I think you are grossly mis-interpeting the VOA!!! Just becasue the additives in the new GF4 M1 appear lower does not mean anything. There is plenty of stuff you can not see in that oil. Their could be a boat load of amines,tungsten,cadnium and antimony and you would never know it!! As for the the EP line I am going to say it again!! They also changed the base stock to a more robust base stock blend!! THey are now useing 50% more of their "Super Syn" stock!
Until you we a bunch of UOA from cars runing the new line of 5000,7500,HM, EP and the GF4 SS we have no clue what if any effect the reformulation is going to have!
Seeing how all of the vechiles that require 5W20 have done so well on Motorcraft 5W20 I have a hard time beliveing that their is anything "special" about 0W20!! I think that if you do a UOA on your current fill of M1 0W20 and then do a UOA on M1 5W20 you will get about the same results! Until you test though it all speculation!
P.S. RP21 is a $10 a quart oil plus tax and shipping!
Until you we a bunch of UOA from cars runing the new line of 5000,7500,HM, EP and the GF4 SS we have no clue what if any effect the reformulation is going to have!
Seeing how all of the vechiles that require 5W20 have done so well on Motorcraft 5W20 I have a hard time beliveing that their is anything "special" about 0W20!! I think that if you do a UOA on your current fill of M1 0W20 and then do a UOA on M1 5W20 you will get about the same results! Until you test though it all speculation!
P.S. RP21 is a $10 a quart oil plus tax and shipping!
John,
With all due respect, you need to stop smoking so much crack...
About the only thing that doesn't show up in VOA's is information about the basestock blend. All the known AW additives, detergent/dispersant additives, and friction modifiers will show up with spectrographic analysis.
To be fair, there are new types of additive chemistries that don't require the treat rate that older ones did. In addition, if you improve the quality of your basestock blend, you can sometimes get away with lower additive treat rates. But that's about it, quite honestly.
FWIW, Mobil 1 would EASILY have passed GF-4 specs without doing anything to the GF-3 formulation. They now have the Mobil 1, EP as their long drain formulation and they have the Mobil 1R for hard core racers. I think you can figure out the rest of the story ....
With all due respect, you need to stop smoking so much crack...
About the only thing that doesn't show up in VOA's is information about the basestock blend. All the known AW additives, detergent/dispersant additives, and friction modifiers will show up with spectrographic analysis.
To be fair, there are new types of additive chemistries that don't require the treat rate that older ones did. In addition, if you improve the quality of your basestock blend, you can sometimes get away with lower additive treat rates. But that's about it, quite honestly.
FWIW, Mobil 1 would EASILY have passed GF-4 specs without doing anything to the GF-3 formulation. They now have the Mobil 1, EP as their long drain formulation and they have the Mobil 1R for hard core racers. I think you can figure out the rest of the story ....
True, IF the lab tests for them. If virtually no one up to now has used antimony, why test for it? Blackstone sure doesn't. But if Mobil is going to be using a lot of antimony now maybe it's time for Blackstone and other labs to start testing for it. That way we get a more complete picture of the AW/EP additive package.
TooSlick, I will have you know that "Crack" is not my poison of choice!! I do not even smoke let alone "Crack". I also do not practice "Huffing" oil like Pscholte does! I am glad youare concerned though!
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