Time to Bash Mobil 1

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Bugshu

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Ok, I know that its probably a Bitog heresy to bash Mobil 1 which is arguably the most beloved of all synthetic motor oils but Im going to do it anyway.

My main concern is the disappearance of the 0W-20 from their product lineup. Rather than educate the public on OW ratings they just reformulated the oil and abandoned the market. Apparantly rather than design the best oils that they can they are designing oils to meet marketing department requests. I dont like oils being designed by marketing rather than engineers.

Secondly, it seems to my eyes that early reports are indicating that regular Mobil 1 is being downgraded just a bit to meet GF-4 while the add packs have been reduced. I guess that they needed to do this to separate M1 from the new EP lines of oils.

The thing is that I dont really care to go 15,000 miles between oil changes and Im not sure that even if I wanted to that I wouldnt end up changing the oil filter a couple of times in that interval anyway. Maybe the oil is good for 15K miles but is the filter up to it? And if Im going to change the filter then being under the car it only takes a few moments longer to change the oil anyway.

Ok, in the past weve had plenty of bashing of Amsoil for not meeting current API specs. However, with the EP oils it appears like M1 is backing down from the latest SM and GF-4 ratings. If we are going to increase adds to extend oil life then why not give Amsoil some credit where credit is due. I havent used Amsoil and Im not really planning on doing so in the near future because Im not an extended drain guy but if I was then Id probably choose the Amsoil 0w-30 severe service oil over the 5w-30 that M1 is offering. The price per quart cant be more than $1 or $2 more and Amsoil has a track record with extended drain oils while the OW rating is appealing.

I wont comment on 40 and 50 viscosity oils because I dont use them. I will say that it seems like as oil thickens that it would be tougher to begin with and that the real market for synthetics should be on the thinner side where there is an honest debate on how well 20 viscosity oils protect.

M1 seems to be losing its niche. In the 30 viscosity oil range the German Castrol OW-30 looks better every day. Additionally, you have PAO synthetics from Royal Purple, Amsoil, and Sinclair contending with M1. Redline and GC with ester based oils would seem to outshine M1 in every manner. This just doesnt seem to be a good time to reduce oil effectiveness when the market place for 30 vis synthetics is filling and this is the mistake I see M1 making.

As a Honda owner, I did buy the OW-20 but Im not at all interested in M1 5W-20. The one advantage that M1 had over the other 20 viscosity synthetics was its OW rating. M1 isnt making an ep oil for the 20 rated oils and as weve seen them downgrade add packages for standard M1 oils then Im just not interested in an average 5w-20 rated synthetic oil.

Dont get me wrong, I dont have anything against M1 and Ive recently wiped out wally world supplies of the M1 OW-20 oil across 4 states as I travelled along I-40.

But abandoning Honda and Ford owners and downgrading their 20 vis oils is a huge mistake and I see no reason to buy the new M1 products. For my vehicles that use 30 viscosity oils I just dont see any advantages over M1 over the new Sinclair PAO or even the RP, Amsoil or Redline oils. GC is in another league that M1 cant touch.

Even Schaeffers oil though not a full synthetic has add packs that compete nicely with M1. Right now Id buy Schaeffers 5W-20 and 5W-30 oils over the M1s. Schaeffers add package is probably better than the M1 and Im not overly worried that a synthetic blend is actually appreciably worse than a full synthetic.

M1 is a marketing machine and they can get their products on Wal-mart and Autozone shelves and that should guarantee sales. Still, I dont see anything special about their products.

I may change my mind after we see a few UOA's but for now Im going to buy all the OW-20 I can find and then abandon Mobil 1.

In the synthetic world and syn blend choices Schaeffers, Royal Purple, and Redline are starting to look good to me in the 20 vis oils. GC will now be my choice in the 30s.

I absolutely cant wait until Pennzoil comes out with their new Ow-20 platinum synthetics. If its a full PAO or ester synthetic then it will be my new choice. I have enough M1 to last until Pennzoil launches.

I dont know why but it just irks me that M1 is giving into marketing pressure and downgrading the quality of their oils.

Happy Motoring All,

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Bugshu
 
For all we know, the new M1 5w-20 may still be a 0w-20. We'll have to wait till they give us the CCS and MRV specs for it.
 
Well they are in the business to make as much money as humanly possible.

Also, it's a little hard to educate the public.
 
You forgot to beat em up on the high iron "valvetrain" wear.
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Stay in grade and TBN retention in nice though.
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Well if memory serves, I think that I read on these forums that they reformulated the whole thing to equal 5w-20 ratings and Virgin oil analysis on the Voa boards still seems to indicate a reduction in the adds. If this is true then its a double whammy for the oil. Less adds and lower winter ratings.

Of course with less adds the winter rating may be underrated so to speak.

Who knows?

Even if the M1 does still meet OW ratings then isnt it just a bit disturbing that Mobil is giving into marketing pressure rather than informing the public about the benefits of a OW rating.

We at Bitog are here to learn and educate others and so why cant Mobil do the same. AEHaas just spent days writing a thesis on the benefits of this OW-20 oil that hes running in his Ferrari and hes a surgeon and could spend his time saving lives if he chose to do so.

Of course I dont know everything but Id think that in the same time he spent to write his motor oil primers that he could have donated his time to do a free surgery for somebody and saved their life.

My point is that this is an important issue and Mobil seems to be just giving up on it. While Bitog is growing and expanding and teaching and the members here demand and expect improvements.

Mobil 1 has been the leader in the past at getting the word out about the value of synthetics. And Id sort of expect and appreciate it if they would continue in that role.

I for one have seen friends and even family members engines blow and once or twice oil issues were to blame. Our cars would last longer if we truly educated the public and that should be our purpose here at Bitog.

Imagine if everyone got 50K more miles out of every car purchased. What would that mean to our economy and quality of life?

Well one can imagine ...........

Happy Motoring All,

cool.gif


Bugshu
 
I hear you on 0W-20 getting-the-boot. But who knows, maybe Jay and a lot of other members may be right about it possibly being the same.

I fault the design team that makes the label we consumers sees. The average Joe looking for the "good stuff" for his Honda is scanning the aisles for 5W-20. The 0W-20 bottles have a small starburst in dark red background that states it meets Ford/Honda 5W-20 requirements, blah, blah.

If they were smart, they would have reversed it, making the 5W-20 lettering prominent.

I see the same flaw with the new EP labels. "15,000 mi" is small and easily overlooked by the browsing consumer.
twak.gif
 
quote:
Originally posted by Bugshu:
Well if memory serves, I think that I read on these forums that they reformulated the whole thing to equal 5w-20 ratings and Virgin oil analysis on the Voa boards still seems to indicate a reduction in the adds. If this is true then its a double whammy for the oil. Less adds and lower winter ratings.

Of course with less adds the winter rating may be underrated so to speak.

Who knows?

Even if the M1 does still meet OW ratings then isnt it just a bit disturbing that Mobil is giving into marketing pressure rather than informing the public about the benefits of a OW rating.

We at Bitog are here to learn and educate others and so why cant Mobil do the same. AEHaas just spent days writing a thesis on the benefits of this OW-20 oil that hes running in his Ferrari and hes a surgeon and could spend his time saving lives if he chose to do so.

Of course I dont know everything but Id think that in the same time he spent to write his motor oil primers that he could have donated his time to do a free surgery for somebody and saved their life.

My point is that this is an important issue and Mobil seems to be just giving up on it. While Bitog is growing and expanding and teaching and the members here demand and expect improvements.

Mobil 1 has been the leader in the past at getting the word out about the value of synthetics. And Id sort of expect and appreciate it if they would continue in that role.

I for one have seen friends and even family members engines blow and once or twice oil issues were to blame. Our cars would last longer if we truly educated the public and that should be our purpose here at Bitog.

Imagine if everyone got 50K more miles out of every car purchased. What would that mean to our economy and quality of life?

Well one can imagine ...........

Happy Motoring All,

cool.gif


Bugshu
Click to expand...
You can thank the folks who gave us the SM rating for the reduction in the additive levels. As long as the vehicle makes it through warranty without a converter failure I'm sure the manufacturers who were behind this will be satisfied. Never mind that the real fix would have been for them to make engines that don't consume oil to a point where the cat is damaged.

There's a lot more to education of the public about 0W oils than Mobil can ever do. A friend of mine was told by a dealer that running a 0W-30 oil in a Ford Ranger 4.0L might "cause warranty issues" because it was "too thin" and that 5W-30 should be used.
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My problem with the SM Mobil 1 initially was the price. It looked like they were going to charge the same amount for what was a less capable oil. It seems now that this will settle out to where the EP oil are about the same $$ as the old SL versions, and the SM oils are under $4 a quart. Just looking at the additive levels that's probably not far off their value.

As far as recommending and using GC, good luck. The phrase "here today and gone tomorrow" comes to mind...
 
I agree with most of what you say bugshu. However I have not given up on Mobil 1 just yet. I remember the concerns when the tri-synthetic mobil 1 was replaced by the new stuff. It was a concern of most everyone that the new oil was a step backwards. Here we have history repeating itself and I belive the outcome will be the same.
We will find the new standard SM mobil 1 better than the SL version. We will find the extended performance another level above the SM version even maybe(heaven forbid) equal too or better than GC. I think time and UOA's and experience will give us answers we just don't have. Until then I have a stash of Mobil 1 SL like you
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and it is enough to last until we know all the facts.
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I don't see anything wrong with Mobil 1.

Changing the 0w-20 to a 5w-20? Why not? It matches the owners manual. Many smart people don't understand what the numbers mean. Those that read the owners manual know if specs 5w-30 or 10w-30 or 5w-40 and buy that viscosity beause its what their book says.

Regarding the decreased additive levels? Aren't those additive levels spec for SM? So Mobil offers SM additive levels and the EP at the old SL levels.

Mobil 1 is still way up there in OTC oil quality. They are stil haven't gone Group III right?

-brian
 
I don't necessarily agree on the putting down of m1 because of their loss of a 0w-20 oil. It was an interesting viscosity, for sure, but I am also sure that, for your application (Texas), especially, that there will be little, or more likely no difference in performance at startup. I have done analysis in my mother's engine. Started with M1 5w-30, in the winter, used m1 0w-30. hen switched back to m1 5w-30, and used it through the cold of winter the next year. UOAs came back better in all situations with the 5w-30. And her car sees only cold startups, severe service, 5 block commutes, freeing temperatures, etc.

Seems that even in many places in Canada, there isnt that much of a difference in use of 0w- or 5w-. Only when you go many degres below freezing is there a difference. Even then, it isnt always true, per my experience above. I think we all have experienced harder, louder startups in real cold, but also times when it was cold, say 15-20F, and startup went suprisingly well, despite itting all night.

I will say that M1 isnt for eerything. I have never seen a m1 analysis in a GM 4.3L V6 that I liked, when compared to use of dino pennzoil, regardless of climate, temperatures, etc.

If you look at a voa of GC, there isnt much that is special. No moly, etc. But we know that there are components in there that do not show up in analysis, but add significant protection. Its also well known that as the new oil specs come out, new adds are being formulated, which do not show in typical analyses, or as the typical additives that we usually look for.

I think its too early to put down m1. As analysis technology, online discussion, etc. becomes more popular, it should make its mark on oil blending. Further, they have to keep their dominance and market stance against castrol, etc., so they have to offer equivalent or improved performance on all accounts.

I am sure there is something going on in M1 to make it work well. API SM isnt a step back, its a step forward. But many people are stuck in knowledge of old technology, and dont look at new advantages. We wont see them either until UOAs start to come in. At that point, we can all be te judges.

I never saw 0w-20 sell much. I think the type of people that usually buy fords and hondas especially are those who dont care about keeping up a car much, they just do what the manual says, without thinking or questoning the science and engineering behind it. Many of those folks wont understand a 0-weight oil, and so wont buy it. Its easy to put down ignorance, but you cant argue with it, or sales numbers. M1 is probably hoping that theyll get more sales, and especially since, IMO the difference between 0w- and 5w- oils is quite negligible in well over 90% of the applications, I dont see a necessary need for justification either.

If youre not getting your engine up to full (oil temp) regularly, and have to worry more about startup protection, then you probably should realize that engine longevity and wear is going ot be sacrificed, and adit that youre not doing anything good for the engine regardless. So, not to be mean, for those who have a major, yearround need for worrying about startup wear, because of constant startups, limited at-temp use, etc., some reduction in longevity and ncreased wear is just a way of life. Its just a matter of fact that you wont get as much life out of your engine, regardless of oil choice or viscosity.

JMH
 
I think Mobil took a chance with Mobil 1 0w20 and hoped that Ford would include 0w20 in the WSS-M2C930-A spec. The oil did in fact meet every performance criteria of this spec. The problem was that WSS-M2C930-A requires 5w20 and does not allow for any other grade.

Mobil rolled the dice and lost. They were selling an oil aimed at the Ford 5w20 market but could not put the all important "Meets Ford WSS-M2C930-A" on the bottle. The only way they could do that was to bite the bullet and introduce a 5w20 grade Mobil 1.
 
Well, Mobil did come out with a 10W-40 viscosity of Mobil1, in their new EP lineup nonetheless. If that isn't due to marketing pressures, I don't know what is, because 10W-40 hasn't been called for in anything built in the past 20 years.

Other than Mobil-1 being overpriced (my complaint with most 'synthetic' oils), I can't think of anything else bad to say about their lineup. And just remember guys, despite Castrol's advertising, its all 'just' motor oil, nothing more, nothing less, nothing worth losing sleep over or obsessing over.
 
I got a 2004 Honda Civic and when the oem fill (Honda 5w20)is changed out at the Honda recommended oil change at 10,000 miles, will go to the Mobil 0w20.

I personally am bummed for my research indicated that among many factors, over Superflo 5w20 (EM makes Honda oem 5w20) Mobil One 0w20 held the promise of 1-3 more mpg.

As you know EM makes the 5w20 for Honda OEM.(EM's labeled product is Superflo) Also 5w20 is the specified oil for Fords and Honda's. I personally think EM/Mobil One saw the writing on the wall and probably calculated what it would take to get the doubtful majority of 5w20 users to use Mobil One 0w20 and to cover both the FORD and Honda specifications.... (Ford's being more stringent). Advantage 5w20!
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.

Indeed VOA's and UOA's might show the same results as 0w20.

Once the meager warranty is up, I would have no concerns about going to 15-20k oil and filter changes; be it 0w20 or 5w20. Indeed Honda recommends (every other oil change of 10,000) 20,000 mile oil filter changes and that is with conventional oil!

So whatever way you cut it, the EM products are still some of the best for the Honda's engine products. So in theory, the SM standard is even better than the SL standard, but as others have said, time and testing will tell the tale over the long haul.

[ February 16, 2005, 03:15 PM: Message edited by: ruking77 ]
 
i think you probably dont need a 0w oil in texas. a 5, 10 or even 15w would be fine.

you know what my moms honda gets, 20w50! why, because it works.

its just oil afterall and some of you are obsessing too much over this.
 
quote:
never saw 0w-20 sell much. I think the type of people that usually buy fords and hondas especially are those who dont care about keeping up a car much, they just do what the manual says, without thinking or questoning the science and engineering behind it. Many of those folks wont understand a 0-weight oil, and so wont buy it. Its easy to put down ignorance, but you cant argue with it, or sales numbers. M1 is probably hoping that theyll get more sales, and especially since, IMO the difference between 0w- and 5w- oils is quite negligible in well over 90% of the applications, I dont see a necessary need for justification either.
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I have a honda civic (2002). I maintain it religiously. I may not be an "expert" but I know a little about oils. Generalizations don't always ring true.

I for one am not losing any sleep over the new line. I expect that it will work quite nicely, as always. In fact I am tempted to try some of the 5w30 EP oil in my 02 civic. Shouldn't be a problem with the summers we have down here.
cheers.gif
 
Companies stop selling products that well, don't sell.

OTOH, it seems to me that most people buying an oil on the edge of providing engine lubrication (xw-20) would want a synthetic. So it doesn't follow that Mobil is turning its back on the market. Perhaps they don't think the xw-20s have a big future. You don't see it recommended by any of the European car makers who sell in countries where fuel is $5/gal or frankly in any country by any company outside of the US. What does Honda recommend for the engine in Europe?

I still think this thing is driven by CAFE rules. The fine print in CAFE says that the automaker must in bold lettering, etc make it clear that the oil grade used for CAFE certification is the "preferred" grade for the engine.

My $.02.
 
‘Interesting how everybody is hanging on to their SL oils - me too, just in case.

Regarding the J300. The W rating column says “maximum” viscosity. Therefore an oil that meets the 0W-30 criteria may in fact be labeled as a 10W-30. A 0W-20 may be labeled as a 5W-20.

aehaas
 
What if the M1 5W20 turns out to be better than the M1 0w20 for most people in the states? How many people in the states start their vehicle below -31F on a regular basis? Maybe EM was able to improve the characteristics in other temperature regimes by giving up something at the very lowest temperatures. Think RL 5W20. Viscosity curves are highly non linear at the lowest temperatures extremes and the new M1 5W20 might actually be close in viscosity to the M1 0w20 at temperatures that 99.9% of people start their vehicles at. I'm keeping an open mind at this point and waiting to see some specs and actual user data.
 
How do you know that the new 5w20 won't be just as good or better at low temps? As I understand it a 5w and a 0w are measured at different temps, so theoretically an oil could be both grades. Maybe it's just a marketing change?

-T
 
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