Time to Bash Mobil 1

[JohnBrowning]

M1 offers the best value for your dollar!! No one else gives you a true PAO synthetic for $3.38 a quart! You can buy it almost any place that sells oil from gas stations, quicki marts, retail stores, auto parts stores, heavy equipment stores, motor cycle stores, marine shops, truck stops etc..... Schaffers,Amsoil,Royal Purple and Redline are mostly mail order some stores carry them but not widely available like M1.

M1 also offers more products in the USA then any of the others M1 0W20 soon to be 5W20,0W40,0W30,5W30,5W40,10W30,15W50($3.38-$4.29), Delvac-1, Synthetic ATF($5), Synthetic Gear lube($7), MC 5000 5W30,10W30,10W40($1.29-$1.49),MC7000 5W30,10W30,10W40($1.49-$1.69),Regular ATF, Regular Gear Lubes, Extended Performance 5W30, 10W30, 10W40, 15W50($4-$5.39), M1R 0W30.

Even their EP is still cheaper then Castrol Syntec's normal price at my Walmart! This is especialy true if you buy it in the 5 quart jug at $23.

No other company gives you as much bang for your buck. Sure their are better products but they cost significantly more and are harder to come by. They offer something for everyone from cheap to expensive from API certified to non-api certified gas or diesel you are covered.

The high iron is not cast in stone either! Not every vechile experinced higher iron with their latest reformulation and the differences were so low that they are well within the margin of error for the testing being done!

To Exxon/Mobil's credit they have reformulated several times in the last 4 years to continue to improve the product! I like the additional choices I have now that I did not have 2 years ago! I also like the idea of them forceing the competition to improve their product lineas well!

 

[OldCars]

Like John above says Mobil 1 can be had over the counter just about anywhere at a price that beats the other mentioned syns.

Being old fashioned, maybe old too

, I am not comfortable using 0w rating with anything less than 40. 0w-20 is just too danged thin for me for anything. IMHO the thinner you go the more tradeoff involved just as going thicker. Just have to decide which end of the scale you'd prefer. Yes there's a middle road but not with using 0w-20

 

[buster]

JB kind of stole my thunder. I'm a bit dissapointed with M1 for a few reasons, but they don't command 65% of the market for being lousy!

They should have lowered the price of the GF-4 M1 and either kept the M1 EP the same price or added more to it. (Although 280ppm of B/3,2000 Ca ain't bad either

).

As far as the 5w thing goes. Well, Mobil had the balls not to bring out a 5w and offered a BETTER 0w oil but too many idiots that don't know any better including Ford dealers, wanted a 5w. The new 5w-20 M1 won't be any different then the 0w most likely. So how is that Mobil's fault?

And like John said, Mobil has stood their ground after all these years and still stuck with a fully PAO based synthetic while others have used blends. Doesn't GRPIII's bad at all, but just cutting corners in that area.

 

[Grossomotto]

If it wasn't for Mobil, we wouldn't have all the great synthetics we have now. They are the industry leader for synthetics. Even after cutting/changine 0W20 to 5W20, they will still be the industry leader.

I like their products. I'm even using a $10 Mobil 1 oil filter with GC in my Toyota V6.

 

[Thomas Pyrek]

quote:

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Originally posted by pitzel:
Well, Mobil did come out with a 10W-40 viscosity of Mobil1, in their new EP lineup nonetheless. If that isn't due to marketing pressures, I don't know what is, because 10W-40 hasn't been called for in anything built in the past 20 years.

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I've got an 87 Honda Civic that calls for it.

 

[rpn453]

quote:

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Originally posted by Thomas Pyrek:

quote:

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Originally posted by pitzel:
Well, Mobil did come out with a 10W-40 viscosity of Mobil1, in their new EP lineup nonetheless. If that isn't due to marketing pressures, I don't know what is, because 10W-40 hasn't been called for in anything built in the past 20 years.

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I've got an 87 Honda Civic that calls for it.

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He's only off by two years then!

 

[Jay]

quote:

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Originally posted by rpn453:

quote:

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Originally posted by Jay:
For all we know, the new M1 5w-20 may still be a 0w-20. We'll have to wait till they give us the CCS and MRV specs for it.

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This isn't possible since, according to XS650 (who seems quite knowledgeable!), there is a spec (SAE J300) that says an oil must be labelled for the lowest winter viscosity spec that it meets:

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=008584

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I've read the J300 spec several times, and have never seen that qualification mentioned. If you or XS650 have seen it, please show me where you saw it.

 

[nemir]

I have not seen m1 5w20 in this area.

 

[cos]

I like the new 2 tier line up and the fact that it's the best bang for the buck. As for the 0W vs 5W I don't think it'll actually make any difference in cold starts.

 

[Cutehumor]

When I first saw the title of this thread, I thought it was about Mobil having more shelf space with their 5000, 7500, mobil 1 EP that it booted German Castrol off the shelves at Autozone!!

 

[JohnBrowning]

****, I only listed those products that are commonly available in a retail setting that Mobil offers. I did not list all of them because all of them are not commonly available at the retail setting. Rest assured Mobil has more lubricant offerings then Amsoil! I also am just listing those that are commonly seen in the USA not globaly. In Euorpe Mobil offers a lot of gear lubes OTC that usualy only sold by distributors to shops here in the USA!

Amsoil is also not widely available in any retail setting. I can not think of any large national retail outlet or national parts store that stocks Amsoil across the board at every location. I can not think of any fully synthetic Amsoil product that is API certified either! Amsoil only fits the non-API certified catagory for synthetic lubes. The same thing can be said for Redline.

Amsoil also does not offer a fully synthetic PAO oil for $3.38 a quart!!!! I also fill preety safe saying that Amsoil is not going to protect my vechile any better then Mobil's synthetic products. When we look at non-API certified oils Mobil now has their EP oil to compete with Amsoil and it is still cheaper for me to buy.

In my mind the only advantage to synthetics is cleanliness! Wear is not that big of an issue. I think we have seen that a combination of adequate HTHS and a decent additive package is all that is needed to minimize wear. The OCI and the longterm cleanliness are what is affected most by base stock and solvency. So if you want your seals, rings, compustion chamber,catalytic converter and pick up screen to stay clean for a long time with less maintence synthetics are best.

Amsoil,Redline,Royal Purple, Synergen etc...all make great products. I do not see them as serious competition to EM in any way. They are not practical for the average joe! Their price and availablity are for the enthusist like a lot of this sites members!

 

[tukeanu]

quote:

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Originally posted by rpn453:

quote:

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Originally posted by Thomas Pyrek:

quote:

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Originally posted by pitzel:
Well, Mobil did come out with a 10W-40 viscosity of Mobil1, in their new EP lineup nonetheless. If that isn't due to marketing pressures, I don't know what is, because 10W-40 hasn't been called for in anything built in the past 20 years.

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I've got an 87 Honda Civic that calls for it.

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He's only off by two years then!

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There are a pile of motorcycles out there that require 10W40

 

[mikemc]

Educating the entire public is nearly impossible.

 

[Bugshu]

I for one have never seen a quart of Mobil 1 for $3.38 per quart in the last few years. And popularity doesnt always equal evidence of quality. Chevrolets are more popular than BMW's but that doesnt mean they are better cars. Mobil 1 will sell because it does have shelf space but that doesnt mean its a better product.

What M1 did in the past doesnt have any relevance as to what I want to put in my car in the future. Technology always finds itself advancing and I dont see the need to use M1 just out of loyalty to past brand consciousness. I will give them some credit for not going the group 3 route but honestly there are 4-5 other full PAO oils in the 30 viscosity range that can compete with M1 and they arent the only player in the game. Yes Mobil 1 is easier to buy but I can go to karlracing.com and buy Royal Purple 5W-30 for about what Id pay for Mobil 1 at my local autozone. WalMart is a few pennies cheaper but its not dramatic. When you factor in that Karls doesnt charge for shipping and handling while Autozone and Walmartd do charge for 9% sales tax then it comes out pretty even. My point isnt to recommend Royal Purple or even Karls racing though Ive had good luck with both but rather to mention that M1 isnt the only game in town when it comes to PAO oils.

After reading the writings of AEHaas its evident that he believes that OW oils provide better start up protection wear numbers than other oils. Weve seen absolutely outstanding wear numbers in the UOA's that weve seen with GC and with M1 OW-20. Ive seen several people mention that 5W ratings are acceptable for Texas and generally they are right though few realize I can be in the mountains of colorado in 5 hours and 10,000 feet above sea level. My home though on the flat plains is still close to 4000 feet above sea level and occasionally we have VERY cold weather. Still, AEHaas writes persuasively that OW rated oil allows advantages even in Florida heat in the summer.

Mobil 1 5W-20 might be as good as their OW-20 oil but then again it might not and I doubt that it is. Mobil is spending hundreds of millions to advertise their new ep oils and rather than educate the public about oils they are resorting to gimmick marketing along the lines of start up, high mileage, and now extended drain marketing.

At Bitog we have already figured out that most synthetics are good for 7500-10000 mile drain intervals and M1's new EP line isnt really a huge boost over what was already available as few that buy the EP oil will actually go 15K miles on it. Some that do will do so even when they shouldnt. I can already hear the complaints 3-4 years down the road when somebody has had EP oil in their car for 4 years of short trip town driving and no oil changes or dipstick checks in that period and blames the problem on Mobil 1 when their engine dies.

In the past M1 has brought out arguably better oils and this time they havent. I dont have an issue with the EP oils and if thats what you want to run then fine.

However standard M1 has been downgraded to make the EP line look better IMO and the OW-20 has been discontinued altogether.

20 viscosity oil is here to stay and it wouldnt surprise me to see Chrysler, Toyota, and General Motors start to migrate over to it in the future.

Mobil 1 doesnt have the responsibility to educate or inform the public but there are those of us who come to Bitog and learn from others and the information does get out anyway.

The problem that I see is that Mobil 1 is coming out with an inferior product to appease market perceptions.

Meanwhile Pennzoil and others are trying to catch up and improve their product.

At this moment, price and performance included Im not sure that Mobil 1 has the price advantage or the quality advantage. They can live for awhile on name brand recognition and reputation and they have earned the right to do so but they are slipping and others are catching up.

Id rather Mobil 1 take the initiative and step up and improve their oils instead of downgrading them. They still are pretty good but Im no longer convinced that they have the lead in the race.

I will be watching closely when the Penzoil platinum line comes to market. And Im hoping to see a few postings on the UOA boards of the Schaeffers 5W-20 line. The one advantage Mobil had over the others that was easy to recognize was their OW rating and now they have abandoned it.

Happy Motoring All,

Bugshu

 

[jbas]

quote:

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Mobil 1 5W-20 might be as good as their OW-20 oil but then again it might not and I doubt that it is. Mobil is spending hundreds of millions to advertise their new ep oils and rather than educate the public about oils they are resorting to gimmick marketing along the lines of start up, high mileage, and now extended drain marketing.

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A few years ago, some could have argued that putting an "0W-20" instead of "5W-20" on your label might be a marketing gimmick.

"spending millions to advertise....rather than educate the public..." When did it become Mobil's financial responsibility to educate the public? They introduced the Mobil 1 synthetic that created the niche (not little Amsoil as they pretend), gave "detergent" gasoline a market boost (no pun intended), even kept their gas stations in western NY when everyone else left (that's for the New Yorkers!). And now these price leader Group III oils. Mobil is bold.

"start up" You mean Castrol's $2.99 "Start Up" that is now being cleared out of WalMart shelves?

And...(my 3rd post on this)...the current Hyundai/Kia 3.5L 6 cyl. requires a 10W-40 grade when outside temperatures exceed 86 F, per the owner's manual. At least my 2004 model does.

 

[JohnBrowning]

Bugshu, If you buy it in th 6 quart case from Sam's or Target you get it for $3.38 a quart or less depending on time of year.

How has Exxon/Mobil down graded their oils? What performance paramater of the oil are you considering a down grade?

Why do you feel EM has resorted to gimicks? WHat have they done that is so gimicky? I think it is nice that they are makeing a gurantee of sorts or a statement of how long each product is designed to be used for.

Do you percieve their improvemed product as not good? I mean they increased the expensive base stock "super syn" by 50% over their other products. They increased additives from 30%-80% adn increased solvency. How is all this gimicky or bad?

What other PAO synthetics are widely available in the retail setting? You mentioned "5" of them but did not list/name them. I am not talking about ordering!! I could order Fuchs Titan 5W20 but that does nto make it widely available!

RoyalPurple has not shown a track record anywhere near as consistent as Mobil-1!RP does not offer the diversity of products either. In many cases RP has sheared back badly in as little as 3000 miles wich is great for HP or fuel economy but might not be good in a longer OEM drain like some of GM's longer OCI of up to 17,000 miles. We also have no performance gurantee or statement of how long it can be used!

RP,Amsoil,Castrol,Redline,Synergen and maybe more are just blenders! Their quality could change in a heart beat and no one would know for a while!

M1 beefed up their product to make a gurantee of performance. It is unlikely that origanal M1 would hold up as well in old, ill maintained engines or engines with small sumps and high heat and rpm loads. By reformulateing their new product they gave themselfs and their customers a larger margin for error with their already conservative 15,000 mile OCI! If you like you ignore the 15,000 mile part and change it often as you like and still have a better oil then anyone is going to give you for $23 a gallon!

10,000 Feet above sea level is not going to tax an oil. The climb up to that altitude if it is long, hot, heavy load conditions will have a greater affect on the oil then that meager altitude. Below 24,000 feet tempatures are more closely linked to latitude then altitude.

Other then being pesamistic about a percieved loss in quality due to M1 0W20 going to a 5W20 what proof do you have to warrant such strong ardent concern? What makes you think it is going to protect any less? The ambient temp. in Texas is so high that you would never see the benifit of a 0W20 over a 5W20! Once the vechile is at operateing temp. it surely is not going to know a difference between 5W20 and 0W20 if the rest of the products parameters like HTHS and additive package are simalar.

I understand you might not be happy with them doing away with 0W20! I just do not see how doing away with 0W20 and bringing out an improved line makes EM an evil company churning out a low grade gimicky product as you sugest!

I fail to see how it is that they are not still better then Penzoil,Havoline,Quaker State,Castrol,Valvoline,RP,Amsoil,Redline,Synergen etc.... They still give you exactly what you are paying for and are the only PAO widely available on a store shelf in the USA! Their new product line is still cheaper then any one elses simalar product.

Do you realise that if you get the Mobil Clean 7500 you are getting an oil that is a Group III and PAO blend for less then $3!Who else gives you a Group III PAO blend for less then $3. Most companys so called synthetics are Group III or Group III and PAO blends for $4-$6 dollars like Castrol Syntec at $5.38 a quart at Walmart or $5.16 at AutoZone!

 

[Bugshu]

My issue isnt with the EP line but rather the regular M1 line and Ive made that clear from the start.

Ive been to sams recently and didnt see a single bottle of M1. I dont regularly shop at Target. Knowing the proclivities of Sams then it wouldnt surprise me if they made a deal for the old stock M1 that is currently being replaced. The new stock M1 will probably sell for much higher than $3.38. Either way, Ive never seen $3.38 M1 except on clearance shelves.

Because a PAO oil isnt readily available doesnt mean its not available. My point was that for a bit over $5 per quart I can have Royal Purple delivered to my door. I disagree with you about the merits of Royal Purple but thats a post for another day.

It does bring up an interesting point however in that many users wont take full advantage of the merits of long drains. I put RP oil in my Dads Camry asking him not to change the oil until hed put 6000 miles on it. I knew full well that it would be lucky to see 5000 miles and sure enough at just over 4000 miles he drained it. I ordered a blackstone dyson analysis kit to analyze it and informed my Dad that I wanted to change his oil for him for free during a recent visit AND HE STILL CHANGED IT a week before I arrived. It drove him absolutely nuts to even consider going a single mile beyond 3000 miles on his oci. If I put M1 EP oil in my dads car it would be lucky to see 5K miles before he changed it. RP holds up just fine for those wanting to run synthetics for 4000 - 6000 miles in a 5W or 10W oil.

There will be a great many users of the EP oil who buy it and then change their oil at 5000 mile intervals. I dont see any reason to even consider EP oil unless you plan to go over 7500 miles with your drain. I dont have much problem with the new EP line but I know full well that 85% of the people who buy it wont go 15K miles between drains and of the 15% who do at least 2/3rds of them will be people who dont change their oil with regularity or even check it. If I were putting oil in my sisters car then Id consider using the EP oil knowing full well that shes not an avid oil changer. In the end though Id probably still choose the Amsoil as its been building proven long drain oils for years. The other 5% of users will be Bitog like in that they do UOA's to see if its holding up and will check the oil levels at every fill up and will make certain that the oil is performing to its potential. Honestly even expecting 5% of the people to do this is generous.

From the VOAs of the new M1 it appears that they have reduced adds over the old M1. The new EP line has increased adds over M1 but it seems like they reduced the adds in the regular lineup to showcase the difference.

The EP lineup is an exciting product if you need extended drains but the regular lineup doesnt seem to be improved and indeed it seems like the quality is reduced.

I no longer see any benefit of the traditional M1 oils over other PAO oils. Id just as soon try the new Sinclair PAO as use M1 5W-30. Ive not seen a UOA on either product. In the end, Id probably pick GC over any of them.

As for marketing the EP is a bit of a gimmick. Traditional M1 used to be good for 7500-10000 miles which was pretty good and more miles than most people went before they drained it. Saying you are good to 15K miles is a bit better but mostly its marketing. Castrol startup was a bit of a marketing gimmick. They put esters in traditional dino oil and marketed it as improving startup. They made a better oil and tried to find a marketing niche. It didnt really work for them because most recognized that there were better synthetics on the high end and cheaper dinos on the low end. Castrol startup got squeezed on both sides.

To increase market share Mobil has to find new customers. Some of their EP customers will be cannibalized from their old M1 products. Some people will buy the EP oils and STILL drain them at 3000 miles just to feel comfort that they are buying the best product on the shelf at Target. For Mobil to really succeed they need to get new customers into the mix. Some people are bad candidates for extended drain oils because they just want to do an oil change and forget about it for the next 2 years. These people would be better off going to the jiffy lube 4-6 times over that timespan. Many that balk at the price of M1 now will balk even more at higher EP prices. There are some that you will never convince of being able to go beyond 3000 miles.

There are a few and I mean very few Amsoil users who go 15K miles now and M1 might steal some business from them but for 99% of vehicle owners the 15K drain is uncharted territory.

M1 could have entered this territory without having to downgrade their current product mix to showcase improvements in the EP line.

Much of the same effect could have been had by boosting traditional M1 up a bit with more supersyn and then marketing it as a 10K mile oil.

I think Mobil has outflanked itself and made some marketing miscues. Customers can now look at a shelf and believe that M1 isnt the best oil on the shelf as its sitting next to EP.

Personally, I can justify the cost of synthetics by claiming to miss an oil change and having to do 1 instead of 2 every 7500 miles. I dont really care for going 15K miles and I dont trust oil filters to handle it. I think for many the 7500 mile oil change with regular synthetic is better for them than an extended drain 15K mile OCI. I think for many that M1 is now a me 2 product line where it used to be a leader. Mobil has the 5000 mile line and the 15K mile line and M1 is going to get lost being in between.

Mobil has opened the door to others. Im curious to see if Pennzoil and other synthetics take the opportunity to kick it down.

Happy Motoring All,

Bugshu

 

[jsharp]

I agree that regular M1 is going to get lost in the middle if it's not priced correctly. But if it is, it'll basicly own the synthetic oil market. What will most people who are looking for an SM rated synthetic buy for $3.00 or $3.50? Mobil 1, or a group III fake synthetic from one of the other manufacurers with no name recognition in that market and no track record?

API SM is what forced the lower additive levels. It's no bait and switch plot by EM like labeling a group III as "synthetic."

As far as GC being a good choice, it bears repeating. To probably 75% of the people in the world, it doesn't exist because they plain can't buy it anywhere...

 

[JohnBrowning]

Bugshu, I do not think that the current additive levels in M1 SS has anyting to do with the new M1 EP line at all. M1 is constantly reformulateing. The chemistry of the two are independent of each other and unrelated.

Their are a lot of additives that do not show up in a VOA that would contribute to formula change. Remember they are formulateing to meet a set of performance criteria not a VOA sheet! Not only are their additives not shown on a VOA some organo-metalic additives are not checked for by most. If they added some form of tungsten or cadnium how long do you think it would be before we knew about? You see my point.

Look at how well GC has been doing in spite of it's low levels of organo-metalic additives!!

I would hold off on all the doom and gloom until your UOA shows a new trend!

EM is the market share leader with 65% of the synthetic oil market. If all they did was pull a few percent away from all the boutique oil companys and gain a few European and GM vechiles owners it will be worth their time. Remember they already manufacture all the raw materail they are useing, they already have a distribution network and they are already established product and customer base. Their exsisting product M1 SS will benifit from all of the new marketing of their new line of dino and synthetic extended performance advertiseing.

[ February 17, 2005, 07:15 PM: Message edited by: JohnBrowning ]

 

[buster]

Bugshu your definitely entitled to your opinion, and I agree with some of your points, but I thing your wrong on some issues.

Just received Amsoil's latest Action News letter. AJ Almutuzio said their largest supplier of additives told Amsoil that a price increase of 12.5% for additives is comming. Amsoil prices are going up for the second year in a row, a record.

Now, what other major oil company has the balls to come out and garantee 15,000 mile drains? They could have given in and just kept M1 GF-4, but they didn't! They are giving us the M1 EP which you or I don't know if it's good or bad. IMO, it's going to be very good.

Royal Purple has shown NO benefit at all over M1 and I think it is not as good of an oil. Sinclair? Shipping costs? I drive 5 minutes down the road and can buy a full synthetic oil for around $5 qt. I think Mobil is doing a nice job and the correct thing. All oils will see a spike in price for alot of reasons.