Has there been a change in attitude in the Big 3 with regards to quality improvements over the past few years. I'm not interested in hearing bogus stories of J.D. Powers studies, just information that they have stopped "nickeling and diming" each car to death. I'm might be interested in the re-designed Ford ExplorerTrac that's coming out in 2006. I'd consider buying one if the quality is improved to that of the Japanese counterparts.
Those that have contacts inside U.S. automakers?
- Thread starter ryansride2017
- Start date
- Status
Kestas
Staff member
Our company supplies parts to the Big 3. They are now telling us what price we can charge for the parts. We have to show them our manufacturing costs and justify our price for the product. If it's too high, they "help tell us" where we can reduce the cost of the part. Our production is so bare-bones that it is impossible to reduce the cost of the part without reducing quality.
The Big 3 are nickel-and-diming each car to death more than ever. Consider how many parts a car has over the cars 15 years ago. If the auto companies hadn't started nickel-and-diming and hadn't moved a lot of production overseas, the price of cars would be astronomical!!
I'd stick with the japanese makes.
The Big 3 are nickel-and-diming each car to death more than ever. Consider how many parts a car has over the cars 15 years ago. If the auto companies hadn't started nickel-and-diming and hadn't moved a lot of production overseas, the price of cars would be astronomical!!
I'd stick with the japanese makes.
The Big 3 have been doing what Kestas describes for years. My dad is retired from purchasing at GM. Years ago, they brought this guy from Spain over to head purchasing. I think his name was Lopez. He later got into legal trouble because Volkswagen hired him away and he took confidential GM information over to them.
Anyway, from the day that guy set foot in the door things have been headed down that path. With labor and health costs as high as they are, the big 3 are almost forced to put heavy pressure on the suppliers or they wouldn't stay in business. I'm not saying all this pressure is a good thing, but it's become necessary.
FWIW, I'm sure this goes on in any auto company. You get to do this any time you're the 800 lb. gorilla, which companies like GM and Toyota definitely are. You HAVE to watch costs, no matter where you're running the business or building the vehicles. Maybe GM and Ford do it to a greater extent than others, but maybe not.
Anyway, from the day that guy set foot in the door things have been headed down that path. With labor and health costs as high as they are, the big 3 are almost forced to put heavy pressure on the suppliers or they wouldn't stay in business. I'm not saying all this pressure is a good thing, but it's become necessary.
FWIW, I'm sure this goes on in any auto company. You get to do this any time you're the 800 lb. gorilla, which companies like GM and Toyota definitely are. You HAVE to watch costs, no matter where you're running the business or building the vehicles. Maybe GM and Ford do it to a greater extent than others, but maybe not.
ford is yanking us around so bad, i'd never buy one just out of spite. nor a mazda, volvo, etc... and i can get a pretty good supplier discount.
they steal our designs, change them enough to get around the patent, then use it to beat us down on price. steel prices are high right now, and ford (and the big 3) say we can't pass them on.
we've eliminated warranty returns (from the previous design and supplier) and ford can't see that we're saving them money.
we have some gm business coming on, but they're no better.
no, it's the same old crap.
they steal our designs, change them enough to get around the patent, then use it to beat us down on price. steel prices are high right now, and ford (and the big 3) say we can't pass them on.
we've eliminated warranty returns (from the previous design and supplier) and ford can't see that we're saving them money.
we have some gm business coming on, but they're no better.
no, it's the same old crap.
Anyone posting here working for Yazaki or United Technologies or know someone who does?
I'd like to hear some explanations for the Ford Contour engine wiring harness insulation screwup (Yazaki) or the Ford ignition switch screwup (United Technologies).
Whose fault were those screwups? Ford or the vendors?
I'd like to hear some explanations for the Ford Contour engine wiring harness insulation screwup (Yazaki) or the Ford ignition switch screwup (United Technologies).
Whose fault were those screwups? Ford or the vendors?
By the way, did you seriously think that this thread would ever result in anyone working for a supplier saying anything more than the following:
"No, we never make ****. Anything we make that fails is all due to the automaker telling us to cut costs."
I hope not.
"No, we never make ****. Anything we make that fails is all due to the automaker telling us to cut costs."
I hope not.
the failures i've experienced (over all companies) include things like:
1) customer provides incorrect specification
2) supplier quality not adequate (and we don't catch it)
3) improper testing of new design (our fault)
4) customer drawing errors (stack up with other parts)
5) sabotage (1 piece, 1 time)
6) improperly installed at customer
7) parts damaged in transit
8) we built parts incorrectly
9) failed pokayoke (error-proofing) allows bad parts to get to customer
10) faked data
there's more, but it's late and i cant't remember everything.
anyone who's worked in automotive for a while has seen recalls, sorts, quality alerts, quarantines, part expediting, and all sorts of yelling and charge-backs.
1) customer provides incorrect specification
2) supplier quality not adequate (and we don't catch it)
3) improper testing of new design (our fault)
4) customer drawing errors (stack up with other parts)
5) sabotage (1 piece, 1 time)
6) improperly installed at customer
7) parts damaged in transit
8) we built parts incorrectly
9) failed pokayoke (error-proofing) allows bad parts to get to customer
10) faked data
there's more, but it's late and i cant't remember everything.
anyone who's worked in automotive for a while has seen recalls, sorts, quality alerts, quarantines, part expediting, and all sorts of yelling and charge-backs.
I don't think those types of problems are confined to the automotive world. I used to work for a company which supplied dedicated internet servers, and they had problems with #1, #2, #3, I suspected #5, #6, #7 with hard drives between the supply closet and the workbench, and #8. I'd also add that they had problems with sales reps writing incorrect contracts--ie, customer wanted XYZ, but XYZ was never put on the contract, so the server was built without XYZ.
I'm glad to see that it's much the same in non-IT related fields..
I'm glad to see that it's much the same in non-IT related fields..
Sad but so true in many industries. It's my career, basically. This job may put me near some automotive stuff.....fire suppression systems for Ford Crown Victoria police cars. There are some design issues with this new system...but I don't know details.
since i kind of blew the question, yes, i have worked for companies that have reduced product quality to meet customer cost demands. this happens through material substitution, design changes, component elimination, or going to inferior suppliers with lower costs.
we're about to do it again; going to an untested, overseas supplier. our current supplier has process and honesty issues, but going to an overseas supplier is going to increase our inventory, decrease our ability to order flexibly, and increase our risk of in-transit loss or damage. piece cost will (theoretically) drop, but shipping costs will go up.
we're about to do it again; going to an untested, overseas supplier. our current supplier has process and honesty issues, but going to an overseas supplier is going to increase our inventory, decrease our ability to order flexibly, and increase our risk of in-transit loss or damage. piece cost will (theoretically) drop, but shipping costs will go up.
Are you a Six Sigma Black Belt?
As far as all the other comments. Yep, that has been my experience too.
Although I look forward to some of the new products coming down the line from the domestic automakers, I would advise you to stay away from the first year of any domestic automakers' product line. Ford particularly hasn't had a good track record-- think of the nightmarish first model year of the 6.0 diesel, and all the endless recalls on the early-build Escapes...
Since Nasser is gone, those problems may have been resolved.
Kestas, I am familiar totally with what you describe. We did work for just about all manufactures except Chrysler. There is one Japanese nameplate that is worse on what you describe than GM or Ford ever thought about.
We even had to work with others to develop special coatings for them i.e. cheaper plating of parts. Everybody else was still using a high quality anodizing process.
Japanese manufactures that build cars here do not operate in a uniform manner and have some different philosophies.
part of the problem is that the uniform manner that the big 3 operate (qs9000, ts14xxx) is crap. it has nothing to do with quality, and everything to do with paperwork.
i saw someone mention 6 sigma black belt earlier. there's another horrible application of statistical method. 6 sigma is entirely unacceptable in terms of shipping product. given the millions of parts that are delivered each year, 6 sigma would send thousands of bad units.
if you aren't striving for zero defects (delivered), then you aren't trying.
6 sigma works well where it originated - computer chip manufacturing. it is unacceptable for inverted delta parts.
Tweeker there is uniformity in a lot of this stuff among all manufacturer's. It was resisted by the Japanese and many American outfits, but we all have to comply if we want to do business internationally. The QS9000 stuff is a Euro thing with the mountains of paperwork. There is uniformity in compliance with some of this stuff. I was referring to cost control and how suppliers are dealt with.
Let me guess, Mitsubishi
PandaBear,
a guy that I used to know did a three month stint as an undergraduate engineer with a brake manufacturer down under.
This company offered three different sets of brakes to your Japanese based manufacturer (2 disks all round, and 1 disk drum). They were all too expensive, and the manufacturer stipulated that it wanted all wheel disks, and much less than the disk drum.
They got all wheel disks (for the advertising literatrure), but sometimes you felt like dragging a stick out the window just to stop a bit better.
a guy that I used to know did a three month stint as an undergraduate engineer with a brake manufacturer down under.
This company offered three different sets of brakes to your Japanese based manufacturer (2 disks all round, and 1 disk drum). They were all too expensive, and the manufacturer stipulated that it wanted all wheel disks, and much less than the disk drum.
They got all wheel disks (for the advertising literatrure), but sometimes you felt like dragging a stick out the window just to stop a bit better.
Cant comment on recent history but I worked for a big supplier of lighting products who supplied to most of the OEMs. Note since the product had to work electrically, it was pretty much the same regardless of who we sold to. Also the quality was very good and the process and materails used were stable. I think Ford and Chrysler were the best people to work with, they were strict but fair. They took an interest in our products and worked with us to develope interesting concepts, some of which are used now. GM and Toyota couldnt have cared as long as they got year to year price cuts. So if someone boasted that Toyota had better quality in this area vs say, Ford I would just laugh because I know it is BS because the product used the same materials, and came off the same machines.
Note I do agree that if the OEMs continue to beat the suppliers into a pulp, they will sacrafice their future. Note though that in my experience the Imports OEMs as just as bad as the big three.
VNT
Note I do agree that if the OEMs continue to beat the suppliers into a pulp, they will sacrafice their future. Note though that in my experience the Imports OEMs as just as bad as the big three.
VNT
- Status
Similar threads
