Things Stupid People Say About Winter Tires

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The All-Season tires used in this video were actually European All-Seasons which are equivalent to the American All-Weather. An American "All-Season" would have fared even worse.

 
How would requiring that tires driven in winter have a minimum performance on ice and snow and cold (the 3PMSF standard) be any different than requiring that tires driven in summer have a minimum tread depth of 2/32"?

And there aren't major accidents in summer from a lack of all-season tire traction like there are in winter from a lack of winter tire traction. The whole point is that tires that call themselves all-season tires are so summer-biased that they are not adequate for the winter season. I'm all for raising the standards of traction for all tires in every season, but the major point of failure right now is during the winter season where the standards are too low and need to be raised. That is where the problem is occurring.

We're just talking about setting more reasonable minimum standards, not forcing everyone into the best tires on the market. The M+S standard just isn't good enough anymore.
I’m not disagreeing with you, just playing Devils advocate. Though I do not run winter tires, I do run 3PMSF rated tires on both my vehicles which I consider the absolute bare minimum if you’re planning on driving through snow. But I would never say winter tires are unneeded/unnecessary, nobody has ever complained about having too much traction.
 
I’m not disagreeing with you, just playing Devils advocate. Though I do not run winter tires, I do run 3PMSF rated tires on both my vehicles which I consider the absolute bare minimum if you’re planning on driving through snow. But I would never say winter tires are unneeded/unnecessary, nobody has ever complained about having too much traction.

I agree that 3PMSF All-Weathers are a decent bare minimum for ice and snow. I recommend them to all my friends and family if they won't get dedicated winters.

And speaking of complaints, I've never heard of anyone saying they regret buying winter tires. It's always universally, "I should have bought them earlier, I didn't know what I was missing."
 
While I have a set of dedicated studded snows for all my vehicles in Colorado and I'm a studded snow tire junkie, there is some truth to this statement. My Dad, who grew up on the east coast drove rwd drive cars with a set of bias ply snow tires all his life. Some winters ago we took his rear wheel drive Mustang, with all seasons, on the same roads edyvw is driving on from the Springs to Breckenridge. We hit some bad snow, ground blizzards, etc. He just drove like always and we made it there and back many times. Repeat this trip over and over, but with a Mazda RX-7, a Lincoln town car, with the same results. Me with my 4wd pickups was freaked out until I learned to watch and observe how he did it.

The problem he is having is acceptance of his own opinions. Not yours or mine. All we're doing is reporting on what we did at the time. His only comeback is he thinks we did it wrong.

My original statement was that I never thought snow tires were necessary when I started driving, up until I left Chicago over 3 decades ago. I determined that because while snow tires did exist back then, they didn't work very well, if at all. In short, they were crap.

I based that opinion, over the course of decades of driving there, over tens of thousands of miles. I came across as many cars with snow tires stuck, or skidded off the road, or getting into accidents, as regular tires. So that convinced me back then, they weren't worth the time, effort, or money to mess with.

That, along with the fact I successfully drove for decades without them. (This is the part where he comes running in with seat belts and cigarettes). I'm not saying that it was a scientific analysis. It was what I observed.

I am saying it convinced me not to waste my time and money on something back then, that from my observation based on decades of driving didn't work, or offer any improvement. And I don't believe you can "get lucky" or stay lucky over the course of decades of successful Winter driving.

I also observed after most every snow storm, that people who drove properly, carefully, and with common sense made it through. Regardless of their tires. While most others who over drove the conditions, or their own abilities, did not. I believe that to be true even today. That video I posted showed nothing but modern newer vehicles, (many with 4WD), on modern newer tires, skidding and crashing all over the place. He then posted, "he see's that all the time".

Now, fast forward to today. He argues that tire technology has vastly improved over what it was 30 years ago. Which I will agree with. And he has used everything in the book from child car seats, to seat belts, to smoking cigarettes, to the Space Shuttle, along with it's accompanying "rocket science", desperately trying to convince us otherwise.

Driving carefully in bad Winter weather is simple common sense. Not "rocket science". I don't care how many times he argues otherwise.

So while we all agree the technology has in fact improved, even going as far to say vastly improved, it would appear by all the pile ups we see every time the weather gets bad, (like in the video I posted, and that are plastered all over You Tube), people adapting their ability to drive in said conditions, or else outright avoid them, has not. And this repeats itself with or without the new, modern, "winter wonder tires".

These massive Winter 100+ car pileups, are as common as dirt today, just as they were 30 years ago. Good tires on cars being over driven by fools improves nothing. If it did they wouldn't continue to happen.

Most every single one of these huge, multi car wrecks can be attributed to people driving too fast in the conditions that existed at the time. Now, or back then. Regardless of the tires they had, or the conditions they were forced to deal with. This is why in most all chain reaction crashes, the guy who rear ends the first car ends up getting the ticket(s).

And while I'm sure you can dig up some stats that show some kind of an overall improvement in the accident rate, with these modern Winter tires, I'm not seeing anything that wondrous. I'm sure he'll say otherwise. In spite of him admitting to, seeing sliding and crashing "all the time".

And regardless if he agrees or not, none of that changes the fact that people do without them successfully today, just as they did decades ago. Would those same people be better served by using Winter tires today, than I would have been, had I used the worthless, rock hard, bias ply "snow tires" that were on the market 40 odd years ago?

Most likely, yes. I don't know or care because it's a moot point to argue. They never existed when I, along with everyone else on the road at that time, had a need for them. And the fact is, what was on the market at that time was pure crap. Just like the carburetors and automatic chokes that were on the engines.

But yes, they're better today based on the fact technology constantly improves with time. If that translates into fewer accidents per capita in Winter weather, I don't know. I rather doubt it. Any driver can foolishly over drive any modern improvement in tire grip. (This is where the common sense comes in). But if they don't exercise it, they'll just slide farther, and / or crash harder.
 
I bough wrong winter tires for my Miata.
As good as Viking Contact 7 are they are poor match for Mazda.
Problem is availability of winter performance tires in the USA.

Krzyś
 
"I don't need winter tires because I'm a good driver."

"I don't need winter tires because I have AWD."

"I don't need winter tires because I have All-Seasons."

"I don't need winter tires because just drive to the conditions."

"I don't need winter tires because I've never had a problem before."

"I don't need winter tires because snow plows."

"I don't need winter tires because road salt."

Edit: UPDATES FROM MEMBERS

"I don't need winter tires because all you need is common sense."
Indeed common sense is "Well, the snow will be melted by noon/tomorrow so I'm going to wait"

Crazy Kanuck doesn't know that the vast majority of the US population either lives in an area where snow quickly melts (sometimes same day) or is quickly plowed. It just doesn't stay cold enough for long enough to warrant snow tires in most of the US (Rockies, New England, N central US are exceptions). The US after all is on the same latitude as Central Europe - N. Africa
 
Because it's not going to matter when someone slides into you with no insurance. When you see these huge Winter, 50 car pileups on the Interstates, you'll lose count of how many of those wrecked vehicles are equipped with, "Winter Tires".

Winter tires aren't going to matter, when they're on a car being driven by a ****.
Yes but at least you've increased the odds slightly in your favor, it gives some peace of mind. I've driven more than 40 winters up here in Montreal and believe me when I do put them on it's like day and night. Driving on supple rubber compared to a hockey puck, gee I wonder which ones are going to have a better bite. Besides it's the law to have them on by December 1st.
 
Devils advocate: if you’re going to tell people they must run a winter tire for snow, you should also be preaching that they need a proper summer tire or “ultra high performance all season” like the Michelin Pilot Sport All Season 4 as well since they do better in rain and dry pavement than the “do everything” all season tires.
I tried that once and hated it. Found myself sweating out when to put on snows. In New Hampster we can have snow at Halloween and also in April. So do I run snow tires 6 months out of the year "just in case"? After all, the summer tires are no good in snow, right?

I guess the right answer is summer tires for summer, and then 3PMSF for fall & spring, then true winter tires for winter. Nothing like having 3 sets of tires!

For me, since I drive boring cars, clearly "good" summer tires are a waste for me, something with good all around performance is just fine for 3 seasons, with maybe swapping on winters for the worst, say Dec-Mar. But that isn't the right answer for everyone.

[I know you're playing devil's advocate, nothing taken by the idea, it does make sense, for those with performance cars anyhow.]
 
I tried that once and hated it. Found myself sweating out when to put on snows. In New Hampster we can have snow at Halloween and also in April. So do I run snow tires 6 months out of the year "just in case"? After all, the summer tires are no good in snow, right?

I guess the right answer is summer tires for summer, and then 3PMSF for fall & spring, then true winter tires for winter. Nothing like having 3 sets of tires!

For me, since I drive boring cars, clearly "good" summer tires are a waste for me, something with good all around performance is just fine for 3 seasons, with maybe swapping on winters for the worst, say Dec-Mar. But that isn't the right answer for everyone.

[I know you're playing devil's advocate, nothing taken by the idea, it does make sense, for those with performance cars anyhow.]
What you said. December to March in NH should do the trick.
 
As far as the whole, "better Winter tires offer better grip" argument, (which I will agree with to a point), you can run a parallel line through it, and improved grip in race tires. While the cornering and lap speeds have increased drastically, the accidents continue. They've just become much worse.

To the point race officials are slowing them down. Again, and again. It's why Arie Luyendyk's record Indy lap of over 237 MPH, and Gil de Ferran's closed course record of over 241 MPH will most likely never be broken.

Look at the cornering speeds at Indianapolis. I remember when a 200 MPH lap was a pipe dream.... Until Tom Sneva did it in 1977, 45 years ago. Now that's a snails pace. Today's Indy race tires offer almost unheard of grip. (Along with much improved suspension and down force). But they still crash. Again, they just do it faster and harder.

And while Indy cars, much like today's street cars, offer better driver protection in accidents. The accident rate itself hasn't improved all that much. Some, yes. But nothing drastic.

Because regardless if it'a on a race track at 230 MPH, or on a snowy Winter road, someone will be there to push the improvement beyond the it's limit..... Or their limit.
 
I don't need winter tires unless I am ice fishing.

icefishCapture.JPG
 
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Where is the line that Y'all believe snow tires to be a wise investment and worth the time to put on?

One day of snow covered roads?

A week-2,3........

1,2,3 months?
 
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