thin perhaps not as good as i thought

[Jim Allen]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: il_signore97

An engine has lots of stuff happening, bearings (which behave like bearings behave, and have significant difference between bulk oil and bearing operating temperatures), oil squirters (minimal temperature rises, and direct oil based on plain old viscosity and density, not HTHS), chain oilers and tensioners, et al.

An OP gauge is an effective viscometer. If you know for example that 60 psi at elevated rev's represents a safe operational viscosity for a particular engine that's all you need to know.
That fact that oil temp's will vary in different parts of an engine is interesting stuff but is immaterial to what one really wants to know; namely, how light an oil grade or more precisely, what's the lowest combination of HTHSV and VI that I can run without issue in my engine.

So if you can maintain the required minimum OP on a 2.6cP 200 VI 0W-20 oil in your climate and with the way you operate your vehicle then that's the heaviest grade you need to run regardless of what oil grades are listed or recommended for that engine.

Having said that, most members here don't have an OP gauge or even an oil temp' gauge so short of borrowing the experience of someone who does for your particular engine you must rely on what the manufacturer recommends. And most would agree, running the lightest recommended oil grade will more than meet the viscosity demands of the engine plus a substantial safely margin. Heavier alternate oil grades may be mentioned for warmer climates or higher ambient temp's but that doesn't detract in any way that the lightest oil recommended is usually the preferred choice.


OK, here is a great opportunity for some learned person to explain exactly why this is wrong. Don't hold anything back and give us the full scientific, technical and physics broadside.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: JOD


I'm still waiting for a rational explanation as to why it matters to someone operating their car in the U.S.?



I would like to have the option to make the oil viscosity decision myself, w/o running the risk of voiding a warranty in doing so. I think that's fair enough wouldn't you agree? Let the mfg give me two choices, a 20 grade and a 30 grade, fair enough? Then write the disclaimer that the mpg figures advertised were based on using the thinner oil. What's wrong with that? CAFE won't allow it. Come on this is BITOG we all know one size doesn't fit all, so does the rest of the world.

 

[Volvohead]

Carnac's pressure gauge says . . . boundary lubrication at main bearing No. 3 in my BMW S65 engine has not been breached on 0w-20!

[Ed laughs, loudly]

 

[buster]

Years ago I read an article from a GM engineer and he said viscosity is not that imporant. It was all the other qualities that they cared about more.

Engines can run on multiple viscosities, period.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: buster


Engines can run on multiple viscosities, period.


Most of us know that. Why the one size fits all, and is the best for any and all US driving conditions, regardless of how the vehicle is used mentality?

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint

I would like to have the option to make the oil viscosity decision myself, w/o running the risk of voiding a warranty in doing so. I think that's fair enough wouldn't you agree?


In your specific instance, where the manufacturer is providing you with a lifetime warranty on the engine? No, I don't agree. I think you should use what they specify and not worry about what they do in other countries. After all, they're the ones "assuming the risk", not you. If you wish to take advantage of that, you should play by their rules. I just don't understand how you feel you're somehow being harmed or limited on this deal?

BTW, do they offer that same lifetime warranty in other countries which have "more options"? No, they don't.

 

[edhackett]

Originally Posted By: JOD

I'm still waiting for a rational explanation as to why it matters to someone operating their car in the U.S.?



Ummmm... because the physical laws that govern engine lubrication are the same in the U.S. as on the rest of the planet?

Ed

 

[slo town]

Gentlemen:

Did you know I run Motul 300V 5W-30 in my Honda Harmony lawn mower?

I am not kidding. I'm 100% serious.

Scott

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: edhackett
Originally Posted By: JOD

I'm still waiting for a rational explanation as to why it matters to someone operating their car in the U.S.?



Ummmm... because the physical laws that govern engine lubrication are the same in the U.S. as on the rest of the planet?

Ed


Sure they do. But no one has been able to demonstrate that the recommendations in the U.S. are not suitable, so why are we worried about what they do elsewhere? Other countries have their own limitations which factor into their oil recommendations. Why is it the concern of someone who lives here?

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Volvohead
Originally Posted By: Shannow
An engine has lots of stuff happening, bearings (which behave like bearings behave, and have significant difference between bulk oil and bearing operating temperatures), oil squirters (minimal temperature rises, and direct oil based on plain old viscosity and density, not HTHS), chain oilers and tensioners, et al.


You're getting at the root of it, Shannow.

Anyone who thinks they can Carnac the entire internal engine operating environment better than the manufacturer's design team did, with just a couple of fluid gauges tacked to the A pillar, is running with blinders on.

It's a very complex environment indeed.

Another strawman argument.
Shannow certainly does not adhere to the "as thick an oil a possible" doctrine and he runs a 5W-30 grade which is light by Ozzy standards considering what's available down there.
He's also on record stating in no uncertain terms that an OP gauge is an effective viscometer, useful for gauging the operational viscosity of oil in an engine.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: SLO_Town
Gentlemen:

Did you know I run Motul 300V 5W-30 in my Honda Harmony lawn mower?

I am not kidding. I'm 100% serious.

Scott

Hey, I used to run Castrol R racing oil (a castor bean based oil) in my lawnmover (it's even more expensive than Motul).
I had some left over from my racing days and just love the smell of the stuff when burned that brought back memories every time I cut the grass.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: demarpaint

I would like to have the option to make the oil viscosity decision myself, w/o running the risk of voiding a warranty in doing so. I think that's fair enough wouldn't you agree?


In your specific instance, where the manufacturer is providing you with a lifetime warranty on the engine? No, I don't agree. I think you should use what they specify and not worry about what they do in other countries. After all, they're the ones "assuming the risk", not you. If you wish to take advantage of that, you should play by their rules. I just don't understand how you feel you're somehow being harmed or limited on this deal?

BTW, do they offer that same lifetime warranty in other countries which have "more options"? No, they don't.



My warranty is no longer offered, but in effect. If they offered it in other parts of the world I honestly couldn't tell you. I was bringing out a point about how only the US has no choice in oil selection for a large part of vehicles sold here. Wasn't it you who uses an oil that is not spec'd for your vehicle? You must have had a reason for doing so?

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: il_signore97

An engine has lots of stuff happening, bearings (which behave like bearings behave, and have significant difference between bulk oil and bearing operating temperatures), oil squirters (minimal temperature rises, and direct oil based on plain old viscosity and density, not HTHS), chain oilers and tensioners, et al.

An OP gauge is an effective viscometer. If you know for example that 60 psi at elevated rev's represents a safe operational viscosity for a particular engine that's all you need to know.
That fact that oil temp's will vary in different parts of an engine is interesting
stuff but is immaterial to what one really wants to know; namely, how light an oil grade or more precisely, what's the lowest combination of HTHSV and VI that I can run without issue in my engine.

So if you can maintain the required minimum OP on a 2.6cP 200 VI 0W-20 oil in your climate and with the way you operate your vehicle then that's the heaviest grade you need to run regardless of what oil grades are listed or recommended for that engine.

Having said that, most members here don't have an OP gauge or even an oil temp' gauge so short of borrowing the experience of someone who does for your particular engine you must rely on what the manufacturer recommends. And most would agree, running the lightest recommended oil grade will more than meet the viscosity demands of the engine plus a substantial safely margin. Heavier alternate oil grades may be mentioned for warmer climates or higher ambient temp's but that doesn't detract in any way that the lightest oil recommended is usually the preferred choice.


OK, here is a great opportunity for some learned person to explain exactly why this is wrong. Don't hold anything back and give us the full scientific, technical and physics broadside.


Explanations like this are exactly why I bought a mechanical op gauge and an oil temp gauge. Because it makes sense.
I understand dermapaints point in wanting to have a choice and not being held hostage by a warantee agreement.
Caterham takes the time to make a statement,and qualify it with a sensible explanation.
I've got boatloads of oil that I now know is to thick and I bought 6 jugs of pp 5w-20 to cut it all so it isn't wasted money on my part.
Yes Europe specs different oil but perhaps it's due to old habits dying hard,not because thicker is ideal.
I'm no expert however I am sensible,and when an explanation makes sense there is no point in arguing.
Thank you caterham for your wonderful explanations. I have learned much from you.
Old habits die hard,and perhaps I'm still on the fence,but I'm leaning a different way now.

 

[cp3]

Originally Posted By: Volvohead

Carnac's pressure gauge says . . . boundary lubrication at main bearing No. 3 in my BMW S65 engine has not been breached on 0w-20!

[Ed laughs, loudly]


So BMWs recommended minimum oil pressure isn't enough to protect their bearings?

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: buster


Engines can run on multiple viscosities, period.


Most of us know that. Why the one size fits all, and is the best for any and all US driving conditions, regardless of how the vehicle is used mentality?

Your misconstruing Busters point.
The fact that US manufacturers don't spec' heavier than necessary oil grades is because they HAVE taken into consideration "all US driving conditions". Your argument that the consumer is in some way not being provided with adequate choice is falicious. Heavier oil grades are simply unnecessary even under the most extreme useage so why in the world would they want to confuse the consumer by stating that one can use a heavier oil grade under certain conditions? It makes no sense since it implies a benefit when tolerance would be a better description.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: buster


Engines can run on multiple viscosities, period.


Most of us know that. Why the one size fits all, and is the best for any and all US driving conditions, regardless of how the vehicle is used mentality?

Your misconstruing Busters point.
The fact that US manufacturers don't spec' heavier than necessary oil grades is because they HAVE taken into consideration "all US driving conditions". Your argument that the consumer is in some way not being provided with adequate choice is falicious. Heavier oil grades are simply unnecessary even under the most extreme useage so why in the world would they want to confuse the consumer by stating that one can use a heavier oil grade under certain conditions? It makes no sense since it implies a benefit when tolerance would be a better description.


It all of a sudden confuses consumers? It didn't in the past, it doesn't anywhere else in the world, are Americans stupid? I sure as he$$ don't think so.

 

[Trav]

Well Frank the more i think about it Caterham validates you position.
Say you do put all these gauges in and keep your eyeballs glued to them and something does go wrong? Then what?

Take you situation. You use the 20w but the gauges tell you you really need a heavier oil so you take his advice and go as "thick as necessary" because you already went as "thin as possible" and put a 30w in it.

You just voided your warranty because you are mandated to 20w and nothing else.
So i think Caterham should add a line to the like thin as possible thick as necessary.
Maybe and toss your warranty right out the window.

BTW he was right at it again last night. Guy has an 07 Honda with 87K on it spec for 5w20. The guy has Mobil 1 5w20 in it, no problem right? Wrong!
Quote:
If you already have the M1 5W-20 in your car I wouldn't dump it, it's just heavier than necessary. But for your next oil change I'd choose a 0W-20.
For long summer road trips the advantages of the high VI Toyota and Mazda oils are minimized, any 0W-20 would likely perform as well. But I would very much prefer M1 0W-20 and even PP 5W-20 over M1 5W-20 for summer use, it's just unnecessarily heavy.


http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2804931&page=1

The guy continues with this daily yet the fan club keeps supporting him and this insanity. Notice the little proviso just in case everything goes into the weeds after he just told the guy "it's just unnecessarily heavy".
Quote:
any 0W-20 would likely perform as well

The fan boys have no problem screaming whats wrong with the spec, it has been proven yada yada yada but when this guy goes off the reservation he gets a pass because he is the "expert" and understands what he is taking about.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: buster


Engines can run on multiple viscosities, period.


Most of us know that. Why the one size fits all, and is the best for any and all US driving conditions, regardless of how the vehicle is used mentality?

Your misconstruing Busters point.
The fact that US manufacturers don't spec' heavier than necessary oil grades is because they HAVE taken into consideration "all US driving conditions". Your argument that the consumer is in some way not being provided with adequate choice is falicious. Heavier oil grades are simply unnecessary even under the most extreme useage so why in the world would they want to confuse the consumer by stating that one can use a heavier oil grade under certain conditions? It makes no sense since it implies a benefit when tolerance would be a better description.


It all of a sudden confuses consumers? It didn't in the past, it doesn't anywhere else in the world, are Americans stupid? I sure as he$$ don't think so.

This entire thread is about confusion over what oil viscosity is necessary.
You're confused about the subject matter because you perceive there is an undisclosed benefit with no downsides that the US consumer is somehow being deprived of. Or to put simply, you're way over thinking this.

 

[Volvohead]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
So if you can maintain the required minimum OP on a 2.6cP 200 VI 0W-20 oil in your climate and with the way you operate your vehicle then that's the heaviest grade you need to run regardless of what oil grades are listed or recommended for that engine.


Ok, I guess we'll stop with the joking around for a little bit. Let's get more serious.

You continue to present what is a position contrary to conventional engineering and industry wisdom -- a decidedly rogue opinion:

0w-20 oil is . . . the heaviest grade you need to run regardless of what oil grades are listed or recommended

Your words -- your opinion -- your thesis.

Since you present it as an expert, contrary to the industry mainstream, the burden is now on YOU to present your underlying evidence, just like any other adverse expert with a differing opinion.

In jurisprudential terms, it's called a Daubert hearing.

Present your engineering data and other expert evidence to support your opinion that: 0w-20 oil is . . . the heaviest grade you need to run regardless of what oil grades are listed or recommended

Just because you state something as a fact, does not make it evidence of it. Self-proving statements are not evidence.

Present the engineering and scientific evidence, laboratory data, field studies and other technical proof supporting your claim that 0w-20 oil is . . . the heaviest grade you need to run regardless of what oil grades are listed or recommended.

Presenting evidence that a 20 weight oil effectively lubricates some engines is not evidence that 0w-20 oil is . . . the heaviest grade you need to run regardless of what oil grades are listed or recommended. It's evidence that a 20 weight oil effectively lubricates those engines only.

Stating that those who disagree with you don't understand "operational viscosity" or some other element of your theory is not evidence that 0w-20 oil is . . . the heaviest grade you need to run regardless of what oil grades are listed or recommended.

Stating that 0w-20 is recommended in certain engines or by some manufacturers is not evidence that 0w-20 oil is . . . the heaviest grade you need to run regardless of what oil grades are listed or recommended.

Presenting a UOA from an engine or two is not evidence that 0w-20 oil is . . . the heaviest grade you need to run regardless of what oil grades are listed or recommended. It is evidence of a UOA in those few engines.

Demanding that others present proof to the contrary is not evidence that 0w-20 oil is . . . the heaviest grade you need to run regardless of what oil grades are listed or recommended.

Declaring others' statements "strawmen" is not evidence that 0w-20 oil is . . . the heaviest grade you need to run regardless of what oil grades are listed or recommended.

Presenting your own external gauge measurements is not evidence that 0w-20 oil is . . . the heaviest grade you need to run regardless of what oil grades are listed or recommended. It's evidence of pressure and temperature at the gauges.

Stating that someone didn't quote you completely isn't evidence that 0w-20 oil is . . . the heaviest grade you need to run regardless of what oil grades are listed or recommended.

But just so that little red herring is disposed of, we'll repeat the unnecessary surplusage surrounding your contention:

So if you can maintain the required minimum OP on a 2.6cP 200 VI 0W-20 oil in your climate and with the way you operate your vehicle then that's the heaviest grade you need to run regardless of what oil grades are listed or recommended for that engine.

Qualifying your statement with conditions and caveats is not evidence that 0w-20 oil is . . . the heaviest grade you need to run regardless of what oil grades are listed or recommended. It's setting up hypothetical variables to make your thesis workable -- under those variables alone.

You're advocating this statement.
You're advocating this statement as an apparent expert on the subject.
You're advocating this statement, contrary to other experts and designers who HAVE listed and recommended different oil grades.

So now YOU need to present the actual technical evidence supporting your opinion -- that 0w-20 oil is . . . the heaviest grade you need to run regardless of what oil grades are listed or recommended.

Let us see all the abstracts, the technical studies, the fleet tests, the lab reports supporting that 0w-20 oil is . . . the heaviest grade you need to run regardless of what oil grades are listed or recommended.

All of it.

The burden is on YOU, and no one else.

If you wish to behave and speak like an expert, then you have to back it up like one.

Many are watching.

 

[demarpaint]

And you are of the one size fits all US mentality? If so why bother measuring oil pressure and temperature? Why the CATHERHAM blend? The 0W20 the mfg specs, a dipstick, and an idiot light is all you need.