Thin or thick (TGMO 0W-20/M1 0W-40): Final verdict

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Originally Posted by addyguy
It looks ugly, but at that mileage and with the car running well it obviously isn't a problem. Good little car!

It runs very well and consumes almost no oil, even with 0W-20.

The PAO has made a big difference -- the engine running very smooth and quiet and with very low friction and drag. Driving is indeed fun again. 2.7 cP HTHSV is only a tad bit (10%) lower than a 5W-30 with 3.0 cP. In fact, it has only about a third of the VII, meaning more shear-stable in the long run. The oversized full synthetic Fram Ultra XG3600 oil filter probably has made a difference as well.

I also don't get the anecdotes from those people who say that Mobil 1 made their engines sound louder. M1 EP 0W-20 is running as quiet as it gets.
 
Originally Posted by Gokhan


I also don't get the anecdotes from those people who say that Mobil 1 made their engines sound louder. M1 EP 0W-20 is running as quiet as it gets.

AFE 0w20 and 0w30 was nice and quiet for me in the two vehicles I used it in.
 
I am a PAO snob now.

I'm really pleased with how the M1 EP 0W-20 runs in my engine.

There are only three off-the-shelf PAO-based oils in USA -- M1 AFE 0W-16, M1 EP 0W-20, and M1 AP 0W-20. Even the German Castrol 0W-30 A3/B4 and German Castrol 0W-40 A3/B4 are no longer PAO-based.

We'll see if the UOA lives to the expectations.

Add the Fram Ultra oversized oil filter snob to that, too.
smile.gif
 
So, basically, we have a 200% margin of variability, or no PAO at all. And people wonder why I'm skeptical of base oil claims or calculations or assumptions made from data sheets.
wink.gif
 
Originally Posted by Garak
So, basically, we have a 200% margin of variability, or no PAO at all. And people wonder why I'm skeptical of base oil claims or calculations or assumptions made from data sheets.
wink.gif



Castrol has a couple different versions of EDGE 0W-30/40 depending on where their made (Germany or Belgium). Either way, EDGE 0W-40 is 50-75% PAO and Gokhan's statement is incorrect.

Both these oils have a -57C pour points so PAO content is essentially gauranteed.
 
Originally Posted by 1JZ_E46
Originally Posted by Gokhan
Castrol 0W-30 A3/B4 and Castrol 0W-40 A3/B4 are no longer PAO-based.
Castrol EDGE 0W-40 A3/B4 is 50-75% PAO

Castrol EDGE 0W-30 A3/B4 is 25-50% PAO or 50-75% PAO

Originally Posted by Garak
So, basically, we have a 200% margin of variability, or no PAO at all. And people wonder why I'm skeptical of base oil claims or calculations or assumptions made from data sheets.
wink.gif


And I will add:

Castrol EDGE 0W-40 A3/B4 is 25-50% PAO or 50-75% PAO

I think they are all correct. Castrol has changed the formulations and the newest versions are only half-PAO-based, whereas the old versions that say 50 - 75% PAO were the PAO-based versions in the sense that they didn't contain any Group III or GTL at all, with the balance being made up with an ester, additive package, and VII.

Indeed, 0W-40 has lost the volsynthese label in Germany and now labeled HC synthese. Moreover, 0W-30 A3/B4 is no longer available in Germany but there is a PAO-based 0W-30 C3 version available there, which is not available in US.

Also, very interestingly, the MSDSs have codes in the beginning with the prefix apparently denoting the country of manufacture:

463737-IT01: Italian Castrol 0W-30 C3, PAO-based
463998-DE01: German Castrol 0W-40 A3/B4, PAO-based
467337-US65: American Castrol 0W-40 A3/B4, half-PAO-based
467465-DE01: German Castrol 0W-40 A3/B4, half-PAO-based
467680-BE02: Belgian Castrol 0W-30 A3/B4, half-PAO-based

It looks like all PAO-based Castrol 0W-30 A3/B4 and all PAO-based Castrol 0W-40 A3/B4 have now been discontinued and replaced with half-PAO-based versions, as evidenced by the 0W-40 A3/B4 now being labeled HC synthese instead of volsynthese and 0W-30 A3/B4 not being available at all in Germany.

Should we call them half-PAO, semi-PAO, or PAO blend? Perhaps German synthetic blend?
 
Correction: 463998-DE01, the oil 1JZ_E46 was referring to, is C3 (mid-SAPS), not A3/B4 (full-SAPS).

463737-IT01: Italian Castrol 0W-30 C3, PAO-based
463998-DE01: German Castrol 0W-40 C3, PAO-based
467337-US65: American Castrol 0W-40 A3/B4, half-PAO-based
467465-DE01: German Castrol 0W-40 A3/B4, half-PAO-based
467680-BE02: Belgian Castrol 0W-30 A3/B4, half-PAO-based

Therefore, there are no PAO-based Castrol A3/B4 oils anymore.

However, there is an Italian Castrol 0W-30 C3 and a German Castrol 0W-40 C3, both of which are PAO-based.
 
Originally Posted by Gokhan
I am a PAO snob now.

I'm really pleased with how the M1 EP 0W-20 runs in my engine.

There are only three off-the-shelf PAO-based oils in USA -- M1 AFE 0W-16, M1 EP 0W-20, and M1 AP 0W-20. Even the German Castrol 0W-30 A3/B4 and German Castrol 0W-40 A3/B4 are no longer PAO-based.

We'll see if the UOA lives to the expectations.

Add the Fram Ultra oversized oil filter snob to that, too.
smile.gif


Follow-up:

I got a very nice 29 MPG in mixed driving in my first tank. The PAO-based M1 EP 0W-20, oversized FU XG3600, new OEM air filter, and new Denso OEM spark plugs have made a big difference in the way the car drives -- the engine feels and sounds like clockwork really.

I've been thinking that PAO-based oils run a lot smoother. It's a pity that off-the-shelf PAO-based oils are virtually nonexistent in US, despite being abundant in Europe.

The 1985 Corolla engine shows no signs of aging -- still no oil consumption and no drop in MPG. Perhaps, it has just got broken in with the M1 EP 0W-20. Lol.

It really makes it more fun to drive when an oil results in a smoother-running engine.
 
Placebo effect, or seeing what you hope to see.

My 1981 Mazda engine "showed no sign of aging" either, and at much higher mileage---on non-synthetic 10W-40.
 
Originally Posted by CR94
Placebo effect, or seeing what you hope to see.

My 1981 Mazda engine "showed no sign of aging" either, and at much higher mileage---on non-synthetic 10W-40.

I've never said a conventional 10W-40 would make a significant difference on engine longevity over a PAO-based oil.

However, the PAO-based M1 0W-20 EP SN PLUS runs incredibly smooth. There is some bias because I also replaced the spark plugs and air filter at the same type but whatever there is in this low-friction oil other than PAO, it makes the engine run and sound like you're living in a slick world in which everything is covered with butter -- that's how it feels when I drive. I will take that without even seeing a UOA. The gas mileage was also great on the first tank.
 
Engines always run smoother with new plugs, and gas mileage gets better too. So you can't say for certain the oil has anything to do with what's happening here.
 
Originally Posted by CR94
Placebo effect, or seeing what you hope to see.
.



Placebo effect is overused, and incorrectly on BITOG.

Placebo effect is real results (cures), without reason...while what's often portrayed here is wishful, but also without reason.
 
Originally Posted by Patman
Engines always run smoother with new plugs, and gas mileage gets better too. So you can't say for certain the oil has anything to do with what's happening here.

thumbsup2.gif
You're right, and many times mpg also increases with adding a little air to the tires.
wink.gif
Often the increased mpg from airing up the tires can exceed the increase in mpg from moving down a grade or two in the oil's viscosity.
 
You missed the news:

FDA approves sale of prescription placebo

This said, M1 EP 0W-20 SN PLUS has made my engine sound different. I had the same experience with M1 AFE 0W-30 SM (which was also PAO-based at the time). It's hard to describe but the engine sounds more metallic, as less low-frequency and more high-frequency sounds, and I like it. Perhaps less friction due to PAO and organic friction modifiers shifts the frequency spectrum toward higher frequencies.
 
Originally Posted by Shannow
Originally Posted by CR94
Placebo effect, or seeing what you hope to see.
Placebo effect is overused, and incorrectly on BITOG. ... Placebo effect is real results (cures), without reason...while what's often portrayed here is wishful, but also without reason.
How 'bout "confirmation bias," then?
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted by Gokhan
I got a very nice 29.0 MPG in mixed driving in my first tank.

Update: 27.0 MPG in mostly city mixed driving in my second tank.

This is far better than what I was getting before. Sure, the new air filter could have made a difference, but the PAO-based M1 EP 0W-20 SN PLUS is a very low-friction oil from how the engine sounds and feels.
 
Originally Posted by Gokhan
Originally Posted by Gokhan
I got a very nice 29.0 MPG in mixed driving in my first tank.

Update: 27.0 MPG in mostly city mixed driving in my second tank.

This is far better than what I was getting before. Sure, the new air filter could have made a difference, but the PAO-based M1 EP 0W-20 SN PLUS is a very low-friction oil from how the engine sounds and feels.


You can't claim that resolution tank to tank...

Here's my Colorado, all 2.5 tonnes of it, filled typically at the same bowser, with the same "run to click", count to 20 to release air bubbles, then run half speed to next click...every time).

As you can see the variability is far beyond the resolution that you are claiming tank to tank.

mileage.jpg
 
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