The Tesla Model 3 Was The Best-Selling Luxury Car In America Last Year 

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JeffKeryk , you are willfully and intentionally shifting the focus away from the actual big picture, by pushing your free sunlight, and discounting the mechanism by which it gets to the market...Surely, as some-one with green intentions, you are after the overall greenest outcome, as opposed to some ideology that ignores 90% of the picture. Look at the big picture, and what do you see (ignoring land use, and the digging up of stuff...as to why it only counts on one side of your equation escapes me)….Surely the most environmentally friendly outcome is self evident by the numbers (science if you will).

CO2 per MWh by energy type.jpg
 
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JeffKeryk, and per my question regarding whether you charge by day, and drive by night...below is the mix in Ca of the various sources of electricity by the hour of the day. Your pumping into the grid during the day, and retrieving it at night means that there are a couple of things happening....firstly, you are using dirty old traditional technologies to charge your TESLA...you do NOT get a free kick out of that...you are choosing when to charge it, and as a result, you are choosing to rely on dirty (in your eyes) technology to do the charging...the fact that the meter runs backwards daytime, and forwards night time does not reach scientific, nor moral equivalence. Solar can push thermal out of the market with negative prices during the day...but then, have a look at what happens as the sun moves away, the ramp rate is higher and higher with more solar penetration...the now less viable thermals are pushed harder and harder to lower minimum generation, increase ramp rates, and hold high loads during the peaks as consumers aren't changing their habits (as you point out in your own situation)….only way for that to work is for the market to force you out of charging overnight, with higher power prices, until the cost of battery storage is me, $0.25c/KWh round trip for Li storage. It's simple science fact, and markets at work...and science fact is that nukes are there 24/7, delivering when required. and for Vikas sake...I've worked at efficiency for the last 30 years...and firmly believe in change...Oz needs nukes, not diesel generators.

Ca Energy Source time of day.jpg
 
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Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
Shannow, no one digs up sunlight, as far as I know.
No one digs up rainwater either...nature (the sun) carries it up the hills. But, by and large, regulators do not consider it renewable....it's pure solar energy that drives the water cycle up into the mountains, and it's merely "processing" that energy towards it's ultimate entropic state that drives legislators to diminish it's renewable status to non existant in many cases. http://www.governing.com/topics/transportation-infrastructure/gov-hydropower-renewable-energy.html If the fact that it turns up there, by nature, just like wind and sun isn't renewable because of the impacts elsewhere, why do you discount the impacts of the "processing" part of solar ? (and hydro is automatically storage and schedulable, provides inertia, power factor, and governor control automatically)
 

4WD

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My ex boss spent 5 years income to renovate/remodel a farm house and barn on 7 beautiful acres. Plan was to retire and enjoy the place … continue to fix it up. Then flip it and move into assisted living for the rest of his/her lives … Dozens of wind turbines have now completely ruined the pristine setting … (they don't even sit outside now) And property value tanked …
 
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Great, great thread. Seems intellectually dishonest to only focus on whether the source is renewable while discounting the rest of the story. Amazing knowledge on here...appreciate the facts. Good day all.
 
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This is indeed a good discussion. Going back to Shannow's comment just above regarding feeding the utility power during the day and taking it at night, it reminded me of the green program our utility has and I'm guessing most utilities have the same. For a little bit more cost the utility will provide you with power from green options like wind, solar, hydro etc. Now I wasn't born yesterday and I only see one set of wires on the road. How the utilities can promote this kind of stuff is beyond me yet I'm sure many customers have taken the bait. Besides, it's no secret that our electricity here in the PNW comes mostly from hydroelectric sources. The link to this scheme/scam. https://www.pse.com/green-options/Renewable-Energy-Programs/green-power
 
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Originally Posted by PimTac
This is indeed a good discussion. Going back to Shannow's comment just above regarding feeding the utility power during the day and taking it at night, it reminded me of the green program our utility has and I'm guessing most utilities have the same. For a little bit more cost the utility will provide you with power from green options like wind, solar, hydro etc. Now I wasn't born yesterday and I only see one set of wires on the road. How the utilities can promote this kind of stuff is beyond me yet I'm sure many customers have taken the bait. Besides, it's no secret that our electricity here in the PNW comes mostly from hydroelectric sources. The link to this scheme/scam. https://www.pse.com/green-options/Renewable-Energy-Programs/green-power
My utility company just offered the same thing and I unfortunately came to the same conclusion (scam)...though took some looking into. Ours automatically opted you in as opposed to doing so by choice...so disingenuous. Lots of angry people calling the power company as a result.
 
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Now that the 35K car is out...... Hopefully guys whining on and on about it will either buy one - or finally STFU. It's like hanging out with the French with chain smoking and tears over this thing. UD
 
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Originally Posted by mbacfp
Great, great thread. Seems intellectually dishonest to only focus on whether the source is renewable while discounting the rest of the story. Amazing knowledge on here...appreciate the facts. Good day all.
+1 Big thanks should especially go to Shannow and Overkill for taking the time and bringing in real data.
 
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Anyone who considers themselves green needs to look at how horribly toxic and dirty the process of solar panel manufacture is. There is nothing green about it. My most eco-friendly cars are my old GMs. 90% post consumer content, and the worst environmental impact they will ever have (construction) happened a quarter of a century ago, and will never happen again. Buying new vehicles was the worst thing I have done for the environment, "clean" as they are.
 
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Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
FYI, I almost got a Murai; there are 2 filling stations within blocks of my house. The owners I talked to were not that impressed. The cost of fuel was high (although subsidized by Toyota I believe) and other issues. Of course, the Murai is driven by electric motors, so it is faaaast.
I test drove a Mirai at the Eat Real Festival in Oakland. It's fast but it to me, it felt cheap and it's a even geekier Prius. Even a base model Lexus ES350 has a better interior. Hydrogen has more challenges than charging stations, and people do think H2 is more dangerous to handle than gas. There's also more compromises with interior space. I think FCHEVs will find more traction in buses and trucks. The Mirai isn't based off TNGA, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's a heavily tweaked Prius with more aluminum. It's built at the same one-off plant where the LFA was built. In the East Bay, the nearest fueling stations are at PG&E in Richmond and Hayward, or so I think. AC Transit recently rebuilt their public-facing H2 fueling station at their Emeryville yard(fuel cell buses fuel up on the opposite side) but it wasn't listed by Toyota or Honda.
 
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Originally Posted by 4WD
Think the insurance rate has to be factored in
Good point. And home insurance companies would be leery about a fuel cell car being parked in a garage. Even though hydrogen dissipates quickly and it's lighter than air so it floats up like propane does. All it takes is one spark or arc from bad wiring or an electrical fixture then kaboom.
 
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Originally Posted by mbacfp
Originally Posted by PimTac
This is indeed a good discussion. Going back to Shannow's comment just above regarding feeding the utility power during the day and taking it at night, it reminded me of the green program our utility has and I'm guessing most utilities have the same. For a little bit more cost the utility will provide you with power from green options like wind, solar, hydro etc. Now I wasn't born yesterday and I only see one set of wires on the road. How the utilities can promote this kind of stuff is beyond me yet I'm sure many customers have taken the bait. Besides, it's no secret that our electricity here in the PNW comes mostly from hydroelectric sources. The link to this scheme/scam. https://www.pse.com/green-options/Renewable-Energy-Programs/green-power
My utility company just offered the same thing and I unfortunately came to the same conclusion (scam)...though took some looking into. Ours automatically opted you in as opposed to doing so by choice...so disingenuous. Lots of angry people calling the power company as a result.
The way that they work is that the company buys a volume of green energy (and/or Renewable energy certificates "RECs" in Oz parlance...and at one stage rooftop solar got 4 of them for every KWh it generated, and the companies would buy them off you...25 years worth...on the day that you fired them up)...then sell them to you to "offset" your day to day energy consumption. So yes, exactly the same, you are not buying green, necessarily produced at the time that you flick the switch. However, the trading of RECs (not the stupid 4 fold factor) does encourage people to finance the construction of facilities....for example, there's some REALLY interesting, green, and valuable projects that get a leg up with these arrangements. e.g. This is really clever.... https://www.smh.com.au/business/kkr...b-solar-power-plans-20160607-gpd4lz.html
 
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Originally Posted by PimTac
This is my biggest beef with these solar or wind farms. They take up massive amounts of acreage and have their own downsides besides being a blight on the landscape. The large numbers of bird killed by these turbines is well known but the noise and distraction of the blades affects wildlife on the ground as well. The solar farms have their downsides as well.
Even in this province, in the valley, where not "much else" is going on with the land, people are alarmed at the space taken up these.
 
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Originally Posted by Garak
Originally Posted by PimTac
This is my biggest beef with these solar or wind farms. They take up massive amounts of acreage and have their own downsides besides being a blight on the landscape. The large numbers of bird killed by these turbines is well known but the noise and distraction of the blades affects wildlife on the ground as well. The solar farms have their downsides as well.
Even in this province, in the valley, where not "much else" is going on with the land, people are alarmed at the space taken up these.
I'm sure it's been mentioned many times, depending on the region, the impact of the usage of the land. Those vast lands could be growing crops, raising cattle or other livestock, and produce far more benefit than the wind or solar systems provide.
 
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Originally Posted by Vikas
Shannow has vested interest in the survival of traditional energy companies but to layman when middle east countries move away from fossil based energy plants and starts building solar electric plants, the "energy market" has been already disrupted. Nobody is building new coal fired generating plants anymore.
Guess what ? with the disruption across significant parts of Oz., the statewide blackouts, August 2018 separation of states, and lack of frequency control...and now some of the highest prices in the world.... https://www.theguardian.com/austral...-coal-fired-power-plant-hunter-hong-kong
 
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