The opioid epidemic - hoppers/thieves

[IndyIan]

Short term, I guess you could armor up your property, spikey topped fences, etc, to make your place more of a hassle to access than the neighbors... Or move, out of easy walking/biking distance from the downtown core, or to the country on a place off the road a bit. If your stuff is easily visible there are guys cruising for things to steal out here too.
It seems right now its too hard for people to get out of that lifestyle, they can't get hired for real jobs so what else will they do for cash? Government assistance is pretty minimal and I don't see how people can live legally on it? Maybe something like a free basic income and housing scheme based on passing weekly drug tests and no further interactions with the police? Atleast then they will be sober and in a more stable environment where they can start to see a path to "normal life".

 

[wpod]

organized militias will take over lol

I really think the police are the cause of the problem , a 120 years ago if people were burning looting and murdering, the citizens would remove those burning ,looting and murdering from the surface of the Earth. Today the police protect the criminals.

 

[wpod]

Short term, I guess you could armor up your property, spikey topped fences, etc, to make your place more of a hassle to access than the neighbors... Or move, out of easy walking/biking distance from the downtown core, or to the country on a place off the road a bit. If your stuff is easily visible there are guys cruising for things to steal out here too.
It seems right now its too hard for people to get out of that lifestyle, they can't get hired for real jobs so what else will they do for cash? Government assistance is pretty minimal and I don't see how people can live legally on it? Maybe something like a free basic income and housing scheme based on passing weekly drug tests and no further interactions with the police? Atleast then they will be sober and in a more stable environment where they can start to see a path to "normal life".

Who will pay for the free money? Why should the responsible people pay for those that have made poor life decisions?

 

[Wolf359]

Who will pay for the free money? Why should the responsible people pay for those that have made poor life decisions?

You don't think people are paying for the free money now with the problems that they cause? Who has to pay when they break in and steal your stuff? It used to cost me $500-$600 to fix the damage to the car when they used to break in and steal a $50 radio.

Even now occasionally someone will break into one of my units and it'll cost me $300-$400 to replace the door and fix the frame damage. I sometimes think it's an inside job, it was someone the tenant knew and I don't know how I got stuck with the bill. Wish they would just break a window instead of kicking in the door. Windows are cheaper than doors.

 

[xgmad]

You don't think people are paying for the free money now with the problems that they cause? Who has to pay when they break in and steal your stuff? It used to cost me $500-$600 to fix the damage to the car when they used to break in and steal a $50 radio.

Even now occasionally someone will break into one of my units and it'll cost me $300-$400 to replace the door and fix the frame damage. I sometimes think it's an inside job, it was someone the tenant knew and I don't know how I got stuck with the bill. Wish they would just break a window instead of kicking in the door. Windows are cheaper than doors.

metal doors, and window guards.

 

[Wolf359]

metal doors, and window guards.

Metal doors cost a lot more than wooden doors. Plus they kick in the front or the back door so it's not just one door. Plus you want them to break in through a window, cheaper to get a new window than to fix the door. Also that's how I get into the unit if the tenants have changed the locks and I don't have the key and they've moved out. Usually they leave the window unlocked.

 

[IndyIan]

Who will pay for the free money? Why should the responsible people pay for those that have made poor life decisions?

Functional tax payers pay for these folks one way or another, and sending them to jail is quite expensive up here. Giving "bad" folks a path of least resistance to becoming an income earning member of society is a good investment IMO. Even just paying people to stay sober and law abiding could be cost effective as well if you place a value on crime averted. Obviously what we are doing now isn't working very well, trying to punish people with nothing to lose...

 

[john_pifer]

Functional tax payers pay for these folks one way or another, and sending them to jail is quite expensive up here. Giving "bad" folks a path of least resistance to becoming an income earning member of society is a good investment IMO. Even just paying people to stay sober and law abiding could be cost effective as well if you place a value on crime averted. Obviously what we are doing now isn't working very well, trying to punish people with nothing to lose...

It's a very altruistic view indeed to think that addicted people who are so deep into the game that they're homeless actually want to conform to society and get a job.

As has already been noted here, most of these folks choose to live on the streets because they don't want to even do the absolute minimum - get a job and pay for a place to live. They want to, instead, be leeches, and get drunk and high without having to work to pay for it.

 

[ZeeOSix]

I really think the police are the cause of the problem , a 120 years ago if people were burning looting and murdering, the citizens would remove those burning ,looting and murdering from the surface of the Earth. Today the police protect the criminals.

Yep the good old west "posse" days to take care of problems. Hang 'em high.

 

[PandaBear]

Paying a few hundred to an addict alone is not going to clean them up. At best they will clean up for a few weeks then go back to the old way, then when they hit the bottom they will clean up again, then go back to the old way. Let me say that the dealers would factor in the cycles of clean vs not, and they will put their customers on payment plan by telling them to go clean then come back with the "clean money".

 

[dareo]

The downtrodden and addicted don’t have much to live for or to lose.

My theory is that a city or state or whatever could setup a facility to house them in a very affordable manor and provide them work to do. Some sort of non voluntary, not exactly a jail but kinda, to help them get clean. The people could be sent here instead of prison like a drug work camp sort of thing. Only substance offenders and make them do some sort of work product that can be sold for revenue. A version of making license plates, but of value to the private sector. Basic assembly work maybe. Keep them busy, give them regular clothes and decent food. Most importantly give them the drug counseling. They could get out when they are ready with some money in their hand and no criminal record. Maybe they walk out with $1/hour for the work they completed, facility takes the rest to soften the costs.

I dunno if this would work or if it has been tried in places already but it’s a big problem worthy of trying stuff.

 

[Wolf359]

Paying a few hundred to an addict alone is not going to clean them up. At best they will clean up for a few weeks then go back to the old way, then when they hit the bottom they will clean up again, then go back to the old way. Let me say that the dealers would factor in the cycles of clean vs not, and they will put their customers on payment plan by telling them to go clean then come back with the "clean money".

But don't forget that no matter how cynical you get, you just can't keep up.

 

[Wolf359]

The downtrodden and addicted don’t have much to live for or to lose.

My theory is that a city or state or whatever could setup a facility to house them in a very affordable manor and provide them work to do. Some sort of non voluntary, not exactly a jail but kinda, to help them get clean. The people could be sent here instead of prison like a drug work camp sort of thing. Only substance offenders and make them do some sort of work product that can be sold for revenue. A version of making license plates, but of value to the private sector. Basic assembly work maybe. Keep them busy, give them regular clothes and decent food. Most importantly give them the drug counseling. They could get out when they are ready with some money in their hand and no criminal record. Maybe they walk out with $1/hour for the work they completed, facility takes the rest to soften the costs.

I dunno if this would work or if it has been tried in places already but it’s a big problem worthy of trying stuff.

Oh yeah, those were popular in places like Germany in the 30s/40s and the Soviet Union. They had all sorts of work camps like that. Because of that, I don't think you'd find them too popular to set up here. As a matter of fact, the whole idea for those camps came from the Indian reservations that the US originally had.

 

[john_pifer]

The downtrodden and addicted don’t have much to live for or to lose.

My theory is that a city or state or whatever could setup a facility to house them in a very affordable manor and provide them work to do. Some sort of non voluntary, not exactly a jail but kinda, to help them get clean. The people could be sent here instead of prison like a drug work camp sort of thing. Only substance offenders and make them do some sort of work product that can be sold for revenue. A version of making license plates, but of value to the private sector. Basic assembly work maybe. Keep them busy, give them regular clothes and decent food. Most importantly give them the drug counseling. They could get out when they are ready with some money in their hand and no criminal record. Maybe they walk out with $1/hour for the work they completed, facility takes the rest to soften the costs.

I dunno if this would work or if it has been tried in places already but it’s a big problem worthy of trying stuff.

Well, first of all, I don't particularly care for your calling them "downtrodden", because that label implies that they've been "thrown down in the street and run over by society". In other words, it's not their fault where they've ended up. And that's not true in the vast majority of the cases of homelessness.

Sure, some have mental illness that didn't result from drug and alcohol abuse, which makes it difficult for them to function within the confines of society.

But out of those of them who have mental problems, most are the direct result of years of drug and/or alcohol abuse.

I do like your idea of "work to rehabilitate". There needs to be "a path back" to society. But, I think it needs to be voluntary, in order to work.

 

[dareo]

Well, first of all, I don't particularly care for your calling them "downtrodden", because that label implies that they've been "thrown down in the street and run over by society". In other words, it's not their fault where they've ended up. And that's not true in the vast majority of the cases of homelessness.

Sure, some have mental illness that didn't result from drug and alcohol abuse, which makes it difficult for them to function within the confines of society.

But out of those of them who have mental problems, most are the direct result of years of drug and/or alcohol abuse.

I do like your idea of "work to rehabilitate". There needs to be "a path back" to society. But, I think it needs to be voluntary, in order to work.

By downtrodden i mean less fortunate. One thing leading to another like a big layoff, then not being able to make rent, gradual slide down into the homeless/addict status. You can be doing well and eventually a little mistake of problem snowballs into street junky.

The mental illness is a big factor, and hard to fix. Impossible for some.

I dont think voluntary would work for most. They seem to become comfortable with their lifestyle. It would need to be a prison alternative. Perhaps a variant that is voluntary, for those that are willing.

I dont have all the answers, just a rough philosophical sketch in my head.

 

[john_pifer]

By downtrodden i mean less fortunate. One thing leading to another like a big layoff, then not being able to make rent, gradual slide down into the homeless/addict status. You can be doing well and eventually a little mistake of problem snowballs into street junky.

The mental illness is a big factor, and hard to fix. Impossible for some.

I dont think voluntary would work for most. They seem to become comfortable with their lifestyle. It would need to be a prison alternative. Perhaps a variant that is voluntary, for those that are willing.

I dont have all the answers, just a rough philosophical sketch in my head.

I'm sorry, but I don't agree with the notion that someone who's working, making rent, a successful member of society, is hit with a layoff and then just slides into homeless junky status. Most people who have their job eliminated or downsized will simply find another job.

Most homeless addicts/alcoholics got into that position through years of bad, but purposeful, choices.

Again, I don't think there's a way to force people into rehabilitation camps (except, perhaps, in some cases where they could be offered the choice of either that, or prison, by a judge, and surely that already has happened, and continues to happen).

However - There's been a lot of talk lately, especially in big cities, about social workers doing much of the social interaction that police currently do, under certain circumstances. I definitely don't think social workers need to go out on 911 calls, but I'd support some funding being given to programs, similar to the work/rehabilitation camps you've proposed, and paying social workers to go out into the homeless community to actively offer people the option to give up the homeless street addict lifestyle and the chance to work their way to becoming a self-supporting, taxpaying member of society.

 

[JHZR2]

By downtrodden i mean less fortunate. One thing leading to another like a big layoff, then not being able to make rent, gradual slide down into the homeless/addict status. You can be doing well and eventually a little mistake of problem snowballs into street junky.

The mental illness is a big factor, and hard to fix. Impossible for some.

I dont think voluntary would work for most. They seem to become comfortable with their lifestyle. It would need to be a prison alternative. Perhaps a variant that is voluntary, for those that are willing.

I dont have all the answers, just a rough philosophical sketch in my head.

None of that is an excuse to use. While some folks like to glorify cannabis for whatever ridiculous reason, and maybe it is a “gateway drug”, I don’t know… the reality is that ingestion of anything more potent is a choice and a really dumb one.

I can appreciate those who get hooked on pain pills, a guy who does handyman work on one of my properties went through that after he hurt his back. But he used the resources to get off of it, not get hooked on the next harder and harder thing.

So people who go into a spiral of losing everything because of their use, is a choice. And a bad one. One should be able to dissociate being homeless from being a street junky. Some of those Kensington Philadelphia videos have a guy that interviews people. $5 for a blue bag, 32 used per day or week (wasn’t clear), means a lot of times being high, and with no income, a lot of stuff to steal snd sell, which many of these folks admit.

But the first time was a conscious choice. The first many times before being hooked were…

 

[JHZR2]

Oh yeah, those were popular in places like Germany in the 30s/40s and the Soviet Union. They had all sorts of work camps like that. Because of that, I don't think you'd find them too popular to set up here. As a matter of fact, the whole idea for those camps came from the Indian reservations that the US originally had.

I think it’s a great idea, but a tangible product that a completely not trustworthy person can work on is a tough ask.

It doesn’t seem like regular homeless shelters are great, who is going to work a minimum wage to administrate a work house? It has to be done by the Government (which then people complain about), the church (which then some people complain about), or someone who can profit off of it (which then others complain about). So since folks cant get past their ideological angles, then nothing gets worked to in earnest. And these people just spiral down and die. People that are sons and daughters and parents. Very sad.

Seems like it would be better to dump massive amounts of whatever is the medication that they take to help get off of heroin. Free, self serve, readily available. Problem is Zimmsure the dealers who have something to lose would want to compromise that. So some truly severe penalties really need to be worked up for dealers.

 

[john_pifer]

I think it’s a great idea, but a tangible product that a completely not trustworthy person can work on is a tough ask.

It doesn’t seem like regular homeless shelters are great, who is going to work a minimum wage to administrate a work house? It has to be done by the Government (which then people complain about), the church (which then some people complain about), or someone who can profit off of it (which then others complain about). So since folks cant get past their ideological angles, then nothing gets worked to in earnest. And these people just spiral down and die. People that are sons and daughters and parents. Very sad.

Seems like it would be better to dump massive amounts of whatever is the medication that they take to help get off of heroin. Free, self serve, readily available. Problem is Zimmsure the dealers who have something to lose would want to compromise that. So some truly severe penalties really need to be worked up for dealers.

I've never thought substituting one addiction for another is a good idea.

I also never agreed with the drug Antabuse for alcoholism:

Disulfiram - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I also think so-called "weight loss surgery" is a horrible idea.

The problem with all these is the same: It fails to treat the root cause of the problem.

To get off of alcohol and drugs, the alcoholic/addict needs to make the decision to free himself of the addiction, and then do what's necessary to make the fundamental changes to his life that are necessary (people, places, and things that triggered the use of the substance, adopting new and healthy hobbies, making amends and reparations to those he's hurt, and, dare I say, faith in God to help cure the addiction).

Similarly, someone who's addicted to food needs to learn not to overeat, learn to choose healthier food options, learn the facts of how to maintain a healthy weight (calories in, calories out), and adopt regular exercise habits. Without all that, the person who is addicted to overeating will still crave the old lifestyle of overeating, will not be happy, and many still manage to find ways to get around the bariatric surgery, and get fat again.

 

[philipp10]

Most street corners now have multiple guys, or gals out there with a sign. Yet the restaurants around here cannot find ANYONE to work. Honestly I ask myself, what changed in the last decade to cause this? I believe it is hard drugs but don't really know for sure. Are these people unable to work a restaurant job but still able to stand on a street corner and beg all day?