The only college degree that truly was an education

[ripcord]

OK, I know some people in that system as well as CSU.
Universities produce new knowledge. When you talk about the US as a superpower, you talk about innovation, new knowledge not the number of nuclear warheads (for example, Russia has more) etc. UC system is the largest state university system in the US, according to some; according to others, it is California State, so it is at least second. But research wise, it is by far the most productive. You have numerous professors who do not teach at all! Why? Because they buy out their classes. When UC system employs professors, the schedule is 2 classes per semester; SOME very heavy research departments are 1 class per semester (however, research expectations are extremely high). What do some professors do? They get grants and then buy a class from the university so they can research. Basically, they pay back the university so that they do not have to teach. But you have to get a grant to have money. Some people are really good at that (check how many Nobel laureates in chemistry, physics, and medicine UC system has) and those grants support staff. A professor cannot conduct research without staff support bcs. grants, ESPECIALLY federal grants, require a ton of paperwork, checks, audits, etc. It is easier to get parole for murder than to get vetted for an NSF grant. So, when one receives a grant, there are two types of costs: direct and indirect costs. Universities take a portion of those grants and fund staff, scholarships for students who don't have money, electricity, cleaning, water, sewage etc.
So, a professor who buys out classes for several years bcs. he/she works on Webb telescope etc. might be actually funding 10-20 scholarships, staff etc. Also, a lot of researchers are really, really bad teachers. Their heart is in research. Then you have professors who are really good teachers and OK researchers. They typically teach 2 to 3 classes per semester at the UC system and often carry summer semesters on their backs, teaching 2-3 classes (for additional pay).

My point is, you really don't want to make really good researchers to teach, if they don't want to. But their contract involves teaching. If they don't teach, that means they bought out those classes, employ research assistants, provide money for scholarships, support staff etc.

I'm intimately aware of how the system works both from my time in school and as the husband of a doctoral program professor who frankly wastes half of her time, energy and a lot school funds on what I see as pennie ante research topics in order to advance in her position in the university and for the prestige of publishing. I know she could handle a lot heavier teaching load and probably be a better teacher if she spent that time on the actual material she's teaching. Her program wouldn't need nearly as many staff, either, if they all carried a reasonable load.

The worst offenders are in the so called social sciences. So, so many billions of dollars wasted on "studying" race, class, and gender adjacent topics.

 

[edyvw]

I'm intimately aware of how the system works both from my time in school and as the husband of a doctoral program professor who frankly wastes half of her time, energy and a lot school funds on what I see as pennie ante research topics in order to advance in her position in the university and for the prestige of publishing. I know she could handle a lot heavier teaching load and probably be a better teacher if she spent that time on the actual material she's teaching. Her program wouldn't need nearly as many staff, either, if they all carried a reasonable load.

The worst offenders are in the so called social sciences. So, so many billions of dollars wasted on "studying" race, class, and gender adjacent topics.

You could publish something and show her how, with that one publication, you can be the new Einstein or Oppenheimer. I mean, what does she say about your job?
Talking about "worst" offenders. Those "offenders" actually created the environment for the Industrial Revolution. Otherwise, clergy would have to interpret what is Group III or Group IV oil base stock.

 

[ripcord]

You could publish something and show her how, with that one publication, you can be the new Einstein or Oppenheimer. I mean, what does she say about your job?
Talking about "worst" offenders. Those "offenders" actually created the environment for the Industrial Revolution. Otherwise, clergy would have to interpret what is Group III or Group IV oil base stock.

That's just the thing. I don't have delusions of grandeur.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

You could publish something and show her how, with that one publication, you can be the new Einstein or Oppenheimer. I mean, what does she say about your job?
Talking about "worst" offenders. Those "offenders" actually created the environment for the Industrial Revolution. Otherwise, clergy would have to interpret what is Group III or Group IV oil base stock.

Franciscan monks mixing base oils instead of making wine! Hehe

 

[edyvw]

Franciscan monks mixing base oils instead of making wine! Hehe

Do we organize an inquisition if using 0W20?

 

[ecotourist]

They do. In most research universities, the schedule is: 40% research, 40% teaching and 20% service. There is a joke that the schedule is 40/40/40 because there is always a ton of service.
However, as I mentioned, professors can buy out teaching with grants. You really don't want to limit those people if they can get grants bcs. that means they are good in what they do and very productive.

My former thesis supervisor was very active in research and service (in his case high level international consulting). So much so that some years ago he refused to teach any more classes. He had been a very good teacher. So in spite of being a tenured full professor the university fired him.

I have to agree with the decision. If you're going to be a professor at a university you should teach, at least a bit. We should not have a situation where students don't benefit from the apparent expertise right in front of them.

My former thesis supervisor has gone on to a brilliant and I'm sure lucrative career in consulting, while publishing furiously all along the way. The university freed up a position for a new faculty person who wants to teach. And that was a good outcome for all.

 

[edyvw]

My former thesis supervisor was very active in research and service (in his case high level international consulting). So much so that some years ago he refused to teach any more classes. He had been a very good teacher. So in spite of being a tenured full professor the university fired him.

I have to agree with the decision. If you're going to be a professor at a university you should teach, at least a bit. We should not have a situation where students don't benefit from the apparent expertise right in front of them.

My former thesis supervisor has gone on to a brilliant and I'm sure lucrative career in consulting, while publishing furiously all along the way. The university freed up a position for a new faculty person who wants to teach. And that was a good outcome for all.

It is tricky. Like you said, he is gone. At that level, when people are bringing multi-million dollar grants, other universities would love to get them. The drop in higher education funding just exacerbates that issue as grants become more important.
I agree with you about teaching, but him leaving is not a win per se. It is not win, bcs. department is supposed to fight for an additional position. Get another professor (probably an assistant) and have both. An Assistant Professor would benefit from your friend's knowledge and would provide teaching.

 

[Jetronic]

Do we organize an inquisition if using 0W20?

Nobody expect the oil inquisition!

 

[ecotourist]

It is tricky. Like you said, he is gone. At that level, when people are bringing multi-million dollar grants, other universities would love to get them. The drop in higher education funding just exacerbates that issue as grants become more important.
I agree with you about teaching, but him leaving is not a win per se. It is not win, bcs. department is supposed to fight for an additional position. Get another professor (probably an assistant) and have both. An Assistant Professor would benefit from your friend's knowledge and would provide teaching.

It would be a nice situation to find yourself in - being paid as a full professor, with unlimited opportunity to consult (while using the university's facilities to carry out the technical part of the work), and no obligation to teach. Teaching can be both classroom work and supervising grad students by the way.

I think the university's primary role is to teach, with research and service secondary goals. But that is only my opinion.

 

[edyvw]

It would be a nice situation to find yourself in - being paid as a full professor, with unlimited opportunity to consult (while using the university's facilities to carry out the technical part of the work), and no obligation to teach. Teaching can be both classroom work and supervising grad students by the way.

I think the university's primary role is to teach, with research and service secondary goals. But that is only my opinion.

Yeah, you obviously don’t understand how that works.
You don’t have unlimited opportunity to consult. There is a thing called 1/6th rule. If you are small consultant, no one cares. University won’t go after you if you make $1,000 a month somewhere. However, if you are big time consultant university goes for part of your income and you must prove that it is only 1/6th and not more of your time.
As for facilities, if you are getting paid by someone else and you are using let’s say laboratory on campus, the university will take sometimes 45% of your proceeds. Same with grants. It is called indirect costs bcs. like you said, it you are using facilities, which means equipment amortization, electricity, water etc.
So, if it is that easy and good, why not you?

 

[ecotourist]

So, if it is that easy and good, why not you?

I'm sure there are lots of things that any outsider won't understand.

As for a career I veered off in a completely different direction, and did just fine thank you very much.

At one point in my second career, I was under pressure to accept an academic appointment but I would have had to take a pay cut to do it. And I would have been expected to do all the work in the department so the professor and head, who would naturally get all the credit, could spend his time writing and traveling to international conferences. So I went elsewhere.

 

[edyvw]

I'm sure there are lots of things that any outsider won't understand.

As for a career I veered off in a completely different direction, and did just fine thank you very much.

At one point in my second career, I was under pressure to accept an academic appointment but I would have had to take a pay cut to do it. And I would have been expected to do all the work in the department so the professor and head, who would naturally get all the credit, could spend his time writing and traveling to international conferences. So I went elsewhere.

As? Assistant Professor? On tenure track? Or just graduate assistant? Because, as someone on tenure track, publishing, not sure how someone can get credit for your work, unless you work as a team and they are the principal investigator on the research project.
But, as you said, you would have to take a pay cut. Salaries in higher ed. are not nearly as high as people think. Depending on field, one might not be even close to 6 figures at the position of full professor. That depends on the states too. But here is an example. A friend of mine was at Chico State, which is part of Cali. State University system. As an associate professor (so has tenure), he was making around 75k, in CA. Some of the most consequential reforms in law enforcement in Butte County happened bcs. that guy. Yet, he was making 75k, wife, two kids etc.

 

[ecotourist]

As? Assistant Professor? On tenure track? Or just graduate assistant? Because, as someone on tenure track, publishing, not sure how someone can get credit for your work, unless you work as a team and they are the principal investigator on the research project.
But, as you said, you would have to take a pay cut. Salaries in higher ed. are not nearly as high as people think. Depending on field, one might not be even close to 6 figures at the position of full professor. That depends on the states too. But here is an example. A friend of mine was at Chico State, which is part of Cali. State University system. As an associate professor (so has tenure), he was making around 75k, in CA. Some of the most consequential reforms in law enforcement in Butte County happened bcs. that guy. Yet, he was making 75k, wife, two kids etc.

Assistant Professor, tenure track, at just over $40k a year. I was making quite a bit more than that as a senior resident. Not surprisingly they couldn't find anyone who would take the job at that rate and had to sweeten the pot considerably.

By doing all the work I mean doing all the consults, manning all the clinics, speaking to unions and physician groups, teaching the residents, lecturing to undergraduates, etc. Having been around the department I knew about the workload and the professor and head was almost never in town. And when he was it was only briefly to make arrangements for some publication.

The reason I knew he would take all the credit? He told the outgoing professor, "If there is any credit it must come to me."

So I went elsewhere (to government) for a starting salary of more than double that, and only 6 years later to a crown corporation as the head of a large department.

 

[edyvw]

Assistant Professor, tenure track, at just over $40k a year. I was making quite a bit more than that as a senior resident. Not surprisingly they couldn't find anyone who would take the job at that rate and had to sweeten the pot considerably.

By doing all the work I mean doing all the consults, manning all the clinics, speaking to unions and physician groups, teaching the residents, lecturing to undergraduates, etc. Having been around the department I knew about the workload and the professor and head was almost never in town. And when he was it was only briefly to make arrangements for some publication.

The reason I knew he would take all the credit? He told the outgoing professor, "If there is any credit it must come to me."

So I went elsewhere (to government) for a starting salary of more than double that, and only 6 years later to a crown corporation as the head of a large department.

Well, yeah. I mean you always have departments that are poorly led, or led by the same person 20+ years etc. Poor leadership destroys very strong institutions in the blink of an eye. You have departments that are so toxic that they become known for that, and then they have an issue hiring, in the end they overpay bcs. no one wants to come for average pay. It is like in any institution, toxic leadership is the worst thing that can happen.

 

[John105]

Kids realizing irrelevant trash degrees are a waste of money also hurting enrollment.

It is a weird time. My dad got a masters in applied math in what I considered an ice hockey school with poor academics. Even in my time tuition reimbursement was 100%, so I did the same as my dad (get degrees on employers' dimes). My dad's school today has a 5% acceptance rate and kids are going to prep schools to gain entry. imho that's discouraging, a school that was not great in 1980, today accepts 5/100. Same school. I can't lie, if I were a 16 y.o. I'd be discouraged by such acceptance rates. Even what I consider mediocre schools are accepting < 20% today. That's where I switch gears and say don't worry about the name, worry about what you learn. Let my generation and older worry about the name and prestige and the ol' boys network. I'm old enough to remember caring what one's business card looked like and looking forward to them coming back from the printers lol