The next Moly controversy

Messages
3,333
Location
Bolivia
Yesterday I was talking with an ex-Lubrizol formulator - currently blender. He told me that the Moly used in engine oil is almost always a type that is used as an anti-oxidant. That no major oil company uses moly as an anti-wear, and only a few boutique blenders use it to claim reduced wear which they may or may not be able to substantiate. Even then, in a formulation that might show 300 ppm of moly, maybe only 30 or 40 are anti-wear substances with the rest being the normal anti-oxidant type. Oil analisis does not distinguish between the different moly additives.
 
Messages
2,233
Location
Wisconsin
quote:
Even then, in a formulation that might show 300 ppm of moly, maybe only 30 or 40 are anti-wear substances with the rest being the normal anti-oxidant type.
If Molybdenum dialkyldithiocarbamate & Molybdenum phosphordithioate are the multi-functional AW/Anti-oxidants (per MolaKule's question-of-the-day thread), what moly compound only functions as an anti-oxidant?
 

Patman

Staff member
Messages
22,012
Location
Guelph, Ontario
quote:
Originally posted by buster: All I know is that the oils that have the least amount of Moly (<150ppm), or No Moly put up the best numbers on BITOG.
You do realize that you've just described most of the oils on the market though. Only a small percentage of oils out there use more than 150ppm of moly in their formulation.
 
Messages
34,385
Location
NJ
I realize that. I was refering to the top 5 or so synthetics on the market. Those being GC/Amsoil/M1/RL/RP. Just a pure, unscientific observtion shows that Moly is fine in smaller doses. In RL's case, I guess if the conditions call for it, it's good to have 500ppm of Moly ?? Redline is the only oil I know of that uses that high of a dose. [Confused] It's clear LZ doesn't like Moly, therefore Amsoil. S2000 products show this and that LZ study suggests it's not as valuable in their analysis of it. [ May 30, 2004, 01:52 PM: Message edited by: buster ]
 
Messages
8,937
Location
SC
quote:
Originally posted by Patman:
quote:
Originally posted by buster: All I know is that the oils that have the least amount of Moly (<150ppm), or No Moly put up the best numbers on BITOG.
You do realize that you've just described most of the oils on the market though. Only a small percentage of oils out there use more than 150ppm of moly in their formulation.

I may be wrong, but I think Havoline and Pennzoil 5w20 are the only OTC oils we've seen with >150ppm of moly, and both have shown outstanding UOAs. But, as I stated in another thread, just because one oil has moly and another doesn't, that does NOT mean the one with moly is better. Conoco/Motorcraft and GC are proof of that. Bottom line: outstanding PCMOs can be formulated with or without moly.
 
Messages
34,385
Location
NJ
quote:
But, as I stated in another thread, just because one oil has moly and another doesn't, that does NOT mean the one with moly is better. Conoco/Motorcraft and GC are proof of that. Bottom line: outstanding PCMOs can be formulated with or without moly.
Well said, agree. [Cheers!] We sometimes focus to much on a particular spec./additive. It's the total package that counts. [Wink]
 
Messages
8,937
Location
SC
quote:
Originally posted by buster: It's clear LZ doesn't like Moly, therefore Amsoil.
Yeah, and maybe if they'd get off their high-horse about moly and actually use it as an anti-oxidant, Amsoil wouldn't have this problem with oxidation thickening that Terry alluded to in another thread. [Big Grin]
 

Jay

Messages
1,607
Location
Idaho Falls, ID
There's an SAE paper written by 4 Japanese researchers for Honda that outlines some of the testing Honda did with 20-weight oils. The researchers found that moly significantly reduced wear and friction in their tests. There's no doubt that anti-wear is the reason many 20-weight oils, including Mobil Drive Clean 5w-20 and the Honda break-in oils, have 150-200ppm or more moly.
 

MolaKule

Staff member
Messages
21,950
Location
Iowegia - USA
quote:
what moly compound only functions as an anti-oxidant?
That was my point. This supposed Lubrizol person is incorrect. MoDTC and MoDTP are both friction reducers AND anti-oxidants AND mild AW agents; hence this is why we call them Multi-Functional additives. Of course, ZDDP is another Multi-Functional additive of the same flavor. Now MoDTC is mostly used in IC engines formaulations while MoDTP is used in many AW hydraulic fluids (but not ATF fluids).
 
Messages
2,233
Location
Wisconsin
Thanks for the follow-up, Molakule. I'm a fan of the question-of-the-day topics & was trying to apply the knowledge from one of your lessons!
 
Messages
34,385
Location
NJ
quote:
There's an SAE paper written by 4 Japanese researchers for Honda that outlines some of the testing Honda did with 20-weight oils. The researchers found that moly significantly reduced wear and friction in their tests. There's no doubt that anti-wear is the reason many 20-weight oils, including Mobil Drive Clean 5w-20 and the Honda break-in oils, have 150-200ppm or more moly.
I have no doubt Moly has it's benefits, but there are clearly other additives available that will do the job also. If Moly wasn't good, then 90% of the oils sold wouldn't have it. I think as you increase the base oil quality, you don't need it as much. I think using Moly with a Grp I/II oil makes sense. It's anti-oxidant ability and wear reducing makes it a good multi-functional additive. I think this is why we see 200ppm with these little dino oils like Pennzoil. [I dont know] We sometimes here that for racing, an oil is more preferable if it has Moly. In Mobil 1 R, Moly @ 80ppm, is used mainly as an anti-oxidant, not for protection. I don't think that small of a quantity is used for protection. Please correct me if I'm wrong. [I dont know] Even oils like Synergyn racing oil, or street oils only contain around 140ppm of Moly. [Smile] [ May 30, 2004, 05:38 PM: Message edited by: buster ]
 

Patman

Staff member
Messages
22,012
Location
Guelph, Ontario
Those people who have been on this site since the beginning will remember how badly I wanted moly in my oil! [Smile] It's funny how things have changed, and here I am running an oil that has no moly whatsoever in it! Although it definitely does have some tricks up it's sleeve, GC 0w30 is not just any oil, we do know it's using some pretty high tech stuff. Hopefully soon we'll find out just what it's secrets are! (and hopefully it won't disappear off the market right after the mystery is solved!)
 
Messages
34,385
Location
NJ
quote:
does have some tricks up it's sleeve, GC 0w30 is not just any oil, we do know it's using some pretty high tech stuff. Hopefully soon we'll find out just what it's secrets are! (and hopefully it won't disappear off the market right after the mystery is solved!)
Can't wait to see that. When can we expect to get the scoop? [Confused] I think GC is the best oil on the market right now. If it weren't so hard to come by, I'd be using it! It is funny how things change over time. Moly was praised for so long and while it's great, we have seen it's not necessary. S2k/M1R/Synergyn/GC all prove you don't need 500ppm of Moly to have great protection. [ May 30, 2004, 08:29 PM: Message edited by: buster ]
 

Patman

Staff member
Messages
22,012
Location
Guelph, Ontario
quote:
Originally posted by buster: Can't wait to see that. When can we expect to get the scoop? [Confused]
That's completely up to Terry Dyson now (as well, it's up to him how much of the info he discovers will be posted on here, and the rest of it may be for paying customers only, which is understandable) Asmodeous seems to have disappeared, so his friend's testing of GC has obviously not happened.
 
Messages
922
Location
Ontario , Canada
I'd still like to have some moly in my oil if at all possible. Some oils still work well without it but for the slight chance you get some hard metal to metal contact a small layer of Moly would be helpful, if nothing but to act like an insurance policy. You might not need it 99% of the time, but for the 1% chance it might be invaluable. I think Redline's use of up to 600 ppms is designed for the hardcore racers who experience more metal to metal contact within their engines as compared to the grocery getters most people drive on a daily basis. When I drive my car on a road course or even 1/4 mile track I'd like to have the 600 ppms of moly in my crankcase. While all of the testing done on this site with UOA's is great, not many people have tested different oils in racing conditions using other methods to analyze engine wear. I think you will find Redline excels in the conditions for which it was designed because of the heavy additive package. The high additives may not do anything for you while driving from work to home each day. I think Jay's information is very useful in proving that moly is beneficial. The testing done by Honda was likely done in a manner that examined engine wear using precise methods. I'm still a firm believer that exact engine wear can't be precisely measured by strictly using UOA's. Hope I havent gotten off track [Roll Eyes]
 
Messages
529
Location
Manitoba, Canada
Well, I don't know how off-topic I am steering the thread with this, but I saw "Moly controversy" and thought I'd jump in with a wildcard: I am a Moly lover and a RedLine lover, and was thinking of adding Schaeffer's Moly to RedLine. Moly overkill? Absolutely. And the controversy as to whether I am an oil nut or just PLAIN nut is not exactly new (nor is it much of a controversy [Big Grin] But no one that I know of has ever done it, and the UOA's might be insightful. I'll even grant ya that it is unlikely to make the oil last an extra 10,000 but can anyone give me a solid reason not to try it? (3800 Series II, 30,000 km on engine, has OilGuard by-pass filter, now in Auto-RX rinse phase, pan to be replaced within the next month, then aim to have oil in for as long as UOA's support it) Over the winter I had GC with Schaeffer's Moly in it, meant to send samples to labs over a month ago. [Embarrassed] Much as I love moly & RedLine, it seems I love procrastination even more [Embarrassed] THANKS! Rob
 

MolaKule

Staff member
Messages
21,950
Location
Iowegia - USA
Golly, I hope not all the Lubrizol types are this ignorant. I would question this person's knowledge and credentials according to what you have stated.
 
Top