A lot of people just want the dramatics- "oh, woe is me, gas is so expensive I had to buy a new car!"
The false econmy of buying a car with better MPG
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Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
It costs about $.10c a miles to own the car and something close to that if mpg=$/gal/100.
Back to that ownership costs, it seems like that $.10c number is almost an absolute, unless you are willing to drive a total piece of junk. Cheaper used cars end up costing that much as well as nicer cars with financing if you purchase them wisely (Civic/Corolla).
First, I hope above it was obvious that my 20K was a typo, it's been close to 120K in mileage over the last 5+ years.
Second, I think you are saying that you have to choose carefully to get a great used car value.
Let's take the typical $20K sedan. You have to drive it 200K miles, just to have the cost of buying it be about $0.10 mile. (Let's ignore that it will still have some value for now. I realize that it does, but probably not much at 200K miles)
Where if you can buy a 5 year old sedan with 100K miles and drive it another 100K miles, your cost/mile just to buy the car is only $0.05/mile.
While I realize the numbers I have are for only one car, I've seen that with a good choice of a simple vehicle, manual transmission, crank windows, power nothing except steering and the sunroof (ironic isn't it, crank windows and a power sunroof) that maintenance and repair is a very small part of owning the car.
So over my approximately 120K of ownership, purchase, maintenance and repair have been 37.7% of my total cost of ownership. Since, or about $0.049/mile.
Maintenance and repair is 21.9% or about $0.029 /mile.
The brand new car, in it's second 100K miles will likely have this cost as well.
So even if the first 100K are trouble free you still have to maintain the car, tires, brakes, oil changes. The next 100K will certainly have some repairs.
Even my wife's Camry needed it's first repair at 100K miles and it's second repair at 170K miles LOL.
She's the only owner, and it's touching 190K on the clock now. Still not cheaper than the 1994 Prizm as she's just now getting close to $0.10/mile and is probably over by my estimations on the cost to buy and maintain the vehicle.
I do think a good value today would be a 3-5 year old domestic sedan with about 75-100K on the clock, and drive it another 100K or so.
I suspect you can get some pretty good examples at under $10K, and even if you had to put $0.03/mile in repairs and maintenance in them over 100K miles, that's just another $3K in costs.
I think the careful shopper could find one for around $5K-8K and be in the ball park or better off than the new car buyer who tries to keep the car on the road for 200K miles.
Those new, repair free miles are far more expensive than the older, but more repairs needed miles in most cases.
It costs about $.10c a miles to own the car and something close to that if mpg=$/gal/100.
Back to that ownership costs, it seems like that $.10c number is almost an absolute, unless you are willing to drive a total piece of junk. Cheaper used cars end up costing that much as well as nicer cars with financing if you purchase them wisely (Civic/Corolla).
First, I hope above it was obvious that my 20K was a typo, it's been close to 120K in mileage over the last 5+ years.
Second, I think you are saying that you have to choose carefully to get a great used car value.
Let's take the typical $20K sedan. You have to drive it 200K miles, just to have the cost of buying it be about $0.10 mile. (Let's ignore that it will still have some value for now. I realize that it does, but probably not much at 200K miles)
Where if you can buy a 5 year old sedan with 100K miles and drive it another 100K miles, your cost/mile just to buy the car is only $0.05/mile.
While I realize the numbers I have are for only one car, I've seen that with a good choice of a simple vehicle, manual transmission, crank windows, power nothing except steering and the sunroof (ironic isn't it, crank windows and a power sunroof) that maintenance and repair is a very small part of owning the car.
So over my approximately 120K of ownership, purchase, maintenance and repair have been 37.7% of my total cost of ownership. Since, or about $0.049/mile.
Maintenance and repair is 21.9% or about $0.029 /mile.
The brand new car, in it's second 100K miles will likely have this cost as well.
So even if the first 100K are trouble free you still have to maintain the car, tires, brakes, oil changes. The next 100K will certainly have some repairs.
Even my wife's Camry needed it's first repair at 100K miles and it's second repair at 170K miles LOL.
She's the only owner, and it's touching 190K on the clock now. Still not cheaper than the 1994 Prizm as she's just now getting close to $0.10/mile and is probably over by my estimations on the cost to buy and maintain the vehicle.
I do think a good value today would be a 3-5 year old domestic sedan with about 75-100K on the clock, and drive it another 100K or so.
I suspect you can get some pretty good examples at under $10K, and even if you had to put $0.03/mile in repairs and maintenance in them over 100K miles, that's just another $3K in costs.
I think the careful shopper could find one for around $5K-8K and be in the ball park or better off than the new car buyer who tries to keep the car on the road for 200K miles.
Those new, repair free miles are far more expensive than the older, but more repairs needed miles in most cases.
Originally Posted By: Cutehumor
Yeah, I disagree with trading in a truck/suv that is paid off for a fuel efficient car. However, I would buy a fuel efficient vehicle if my guzzler was dying or dead
+1
Yeah, I disagree with trading in a truck/suv that is paid off for a fuel efficient car. However, I would buy a fuel efficient vehicle if my guzzler was dying or dead
+1
Quote:
A lot of people just want the dramatics- "oh, woe is me, gas is so expensive I had to buy a new car!"
Agree, but I think the majority are just plain and simple clueless when it comes to simple financial things like loans, interest rates, negative equity etc. They just trust the salesman and all they care is to pay less at the pump, even though they are loosing thousands to the bank and the dealer.
A lot of people just want the dramatics- "oh, woe is me, gas is so expensive I had to buy a new car!"
Agree, but I think the majority are just plain and simple clueless when it comes to simple financial things like loans, interest rates, negative equity etc. They just trust the salesman and all they care is to pay less at the pump, even though they are loosing thousands to the bank and the dealer.
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Originally Posted By: mrsilv04
Originally Posted By: javacontour
If you REALLY want to save money, stop buying new cars.
Best advice in the whole topic so far.
I bought my pickup when it was 18 months old for nearly half of its original sticker price.
Even though I bought it two years ago, I still haven't lost much in depreciation.
Oh, I think you would be surprised at how much value you have lost in the past two years. High fuel prices have dropped demand for pickups. Just look at all the rebates for new ones today.
Originally Posted By: javacontour
If you REALLY want to save money, stop buying new cars.
Best advice in the whole topic so far.
I bought my pickup when it was 18 months old for nearly half of its original sticker price.
Even though I bought it two years ago, I still haven't lost much in depreciation.
Oh, I think you would be surprised at how much value you have lost in the past two years. High fuel prices have dropped demand for pickups. Just look at all the rebates for new ones today.
How much will gas be in 5 years from now ???
She should have bought a low mileage, used Civic or Corolla and keep it for the next 10 years.
She should have bought a low mileage, used Civic or Corolla and keep it for the next 10 years.
My son-in-law bought a Dodge Caliber 4 cyl to save gas as a go to work car. He keeps a V8 truck in his garage because he likes the looks of it. So the truck sits and depreciates week after week and still pays insurance and license just in case. Meanwhile his wife works to keep food on the table. THEY WALK AMONG US.
I agree with the number crunching that it usually doesn't make sense to get rid of a car because it gets poor mileage. Also that a lot of people are making un-wise decisions on car buying.
What percentage of people's car buying decisions were intelligent decisions before gas prices went up? :crackmeup
:
I know we have quite a few BITOGERs who buy good used vehicles wisely, then drive them a couple hundred k miles until the wheels fall off,
but most people's car buying decisions were and still are made on emotion and want rather than need.
The only difference now is that it's easier to see the illogic and the want is low fuel consumption.
What percentage of people's car buying decisions were intelligent decisions before gas prices went up? :crackmeup
I know we have quite a few BITOGERs who buy good used vehicles wisely, then drive them a couple hundred k miles until the wheels fall off,
The only difference now is that it's easier to see the illogic and the want is low fuel consumption.
Kestas
Staff member
I remember (10 years ago?) when gas dipped below $1.00 a gallon down to around 77¢ per gallon. Truck and SUV sales went through the roof! I for one did not expect the price of gas to stay there. It just shows how people don't look further than three months ahead when making a purchase that would stick with them for 7-10 years.
The only way to tip the cost factors in your favour is to keep you car as long as possible. Pay it off before it needs a lot of repirs and that's a good bet. Somone should link this thread to the "How many miles on your Honda" thread.
Originally Posted By: Eddie
My son-in-law bought a Dodge Caliber 4 cyl to save gas as a go to work car. He keeps a V8 truck in his garage because he likes the looks of it. So the truck sits and depreciates week after week and still pays insurance and license just in case. Meanwhile his wife works to keep food on the table. THEY WALK AMONG US.
I drove my F-150 for 8 years before I bought my accord. I decided to keep the truck rather than trade it in. I like having the truck to haul mulch, lumber, play in the snow etc. etc. It has gotten 6,000 miles in 2 years. I know I would have been money ahead had I traded it in but I figure the truck cost me about $600/year plus fuel. The cost wasn't too bad to keep it. But, it was 8 years old with 150,000 miles before I bought the car so it didn't have a lot of value left. Sure is nice to have that garage queen.
My son-in-law bought a Dodge Caliber 4 cyl to save gas as a go to work car. He keeps a V8 truck in his garage because he likes the looks of it. So the truck sits and depreciates week after week and still pays insurance and license just in case. Meanwhile his wife works to keep food on the table. THEY WALK AMONG US.
I drove my F-150 for 8 years before I bought my accord. I decided to keep the truck rather than trade it in. I like having the truck to haul mulch, lumber, play in the snow etc. etc. It has gotten 6,000 miles in 2 years. I know I would have been money ahead had I traded it in but I figure the truck cost me about $600/year plus fuel. The cost wasn't too bad to keep it. But, it was 8 years old with 150,000 miles before I bought the car so it didn't have a lot of value left. Sure is nice to have that garage queen.
Originally Posted By: mrsilv04
Originally Posted By: javacontour
If you REALLY want to save money, stop buying new cars.
Best advice in the whole topic so far.
x2
That's why i bought my 94 Corolla for 4 grand about 4 years ago. It only depreciated about 1 grand - 2 years ago it was worth only 2 ground, now it's up to 3 grand (fairly low miles).
It for sure idiotic to trade in a newer vehicle that's taken a serious depreciation hit (especially enough to where you are upside down) for a brand new fuel sipper. But getting out of an upside down car for an older but reliable fuel sipper could be a good move. Getting out of a fairly new but paid off guzzler for an equal used fuel sipper is a no brainer.
Originally Posted By: javacontour
If you REALLY want to save money, stop buying new cars.
Best advice in the whole topic so far.
x2
That's why i bought my 94 Corolla for 4 grand about 4 years ago. It only depreciated about 1 grand - 2 years ago it was worth only 2 ground, now it's up to 3 grand (fairly low miles).
It for sure idiotic to trade in a newer vehicle that's taken a serious depreciation hit (especially enough to where you are upside down) for a brand new fuel sipper. But getting out of an upside down car for an older but reliable fuel sipper could be a good move. Getting out of a fairly new but paid off guzzler for an equal used fuel sipper is a no brainer.
Originally Posted By: LT4 Vette
How much will gas be in 5 years from now ???
About the same as it was last year.
Originally Posted By: Kestas
I remember (10 years ago?) when gas dipped below $1.00 a gallon down to around 77¢ per gallon. Truck and SUV sales went through the roof! I for one did not expect the price of gas to stay there. It just shows how people don't look further than three months ahead when making a purchase that would stick with them for 7-10 years.
Same here, of course.
However now everybody seems convinced that it will be $4+ per gallon from here on out. I
People always project current trends forward to come up with their vision of the future. As the past shows us, it rarely works out that way.
How much will gas be in 5 years from now ???
About the same as it was last year.
Originally Posted By: Kestas
I remember (10 years ago?) when gas dipped below $1.00 a gallon down to around 77¢ per gallon. Truck and SUV sales went through the roof! I for one did not expect the price of gas to stay there. It just shows how people don't look further than three months ahead when making a purchase that would stick with them for 7-10 years.
Same here, of course.
However now everybody seems convinced that it will be $4+ per gallon from here on out. I
People always project current trends forward to come up with their vision of the future. As the past shows us, it rarely works out that way.
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I'm sure people with guzzlers are trying to dump them before they are totally worthless and to rationalize buying a fuel efficient vehicle in the process. nothing like KBB telling you it's worth 15k and the dealership is telling you 10k to basically tell you they don't want your trade in guzzler. Unless you give it away to them. There have been numerous articles online about dealerships turning away SUV/Truck trade ins.
Interesting topic.
I purchased my 1997 Monte Carlo (3.1L V6) in 1998.
Last July, my wife and I went to the Smokey Mountains (from Detroit). We went to Gatlinburg and a bunch of other attractions in the area. It was hot, and I had the AC on continually. I didn't drive easy, except on the highway where I set the cruise, when possible.
I had M1 5W30 with a Supertech filter, Fram air filter, Bosch platinum plugs (1 year old), new wires and coil packs (also 1 year old), new-ish front wheel bearings, Michelin X1 worn to about 75% at 32 PSI.
I had used two doses of Regane a couple of months earlier in an attempt to free up a sticky fuel level sender (It didn't fix the problem, but I believe it helped acceleration).
I was able to get just a tick under 32MPG. This is with a 10 year old car.
Needless to say, I'm not impressed with the mileage of many of the new cars.
I purchased my 1997 Monte Carlo (3.1L V6) in 1998.
Last July, my wife and I went to the Smokey Mountains (from Detroit). We went to Gatlinburg and a bunch of other attractions in the area. It was hot, and I had the AC on continually. I didn't drive easy, except on the highway where I set the cruise, when possible.
I had M1 5W30 with a Supertech filter, Fram air filter, Bosch platinum plugs (1 year old), new wires and coil packs (also 1 year old), new-ish front wheel bearings, Michelin X1 worn to about 75% at 32 PSI.
I had used two doses of Regane a couple of months earlier in an attempt to free up a sticky fuel level sender (It didn't fix the problem, but I believe it helped acceleration).
I was able to get just a tick under 32MPG. This is with a 10 year old car.
Needless to say, I'm not impressed with the mileage of many of the new cars.
I bought my 95 Geo Prizm (Toyota 7AFE 1.8L engine) back in 2006 for $2500.
The odd thing is a majority of those out there now have asking prices of $3-4k, but if you are patient enough one will occasionally pop up at or under $2k, but only for a few days before it is gone. It seems that many sellers are greedy and won't get offers and there are sellers who are way underpriced probably bought their cars and didn't figure that their fuel economy was contributing to its value.
I can't see a better solution for myself to own what I own right now. I've had this car for 50k miles and haven't had to buy any parts that weren't a part of standard maintenance such as tires, brakes, oil, coolant, sparks plugs, etc. Putting quick numbers down on paper, I think if I took all of my vehicle expenses and wrote them down, I could take the amount of money I spent on tires and it would probably equal the cost I spent on all the rest of the maintenance and repair. In the state of Minnesota the Tax, Title, and License of my car was accomplished with two $20 bills in 2006. In MN it's a very low fixed price if the vehicle is 10 years old or older, from what I've been hearing it might take an extra $20 to do the job today.
I recently went to Toronto earlier this month with my car, I filled the gas tank 4 times in the US and once in Canada where I only put $10CDN in, which buys a hair more than 2 gallons of gas there, and accomplished 536.1 miles of driving on 12.5 gallons of gas, getting 43 MPG with a car that has an EPA rating of 34 MPG on the highway. The rest of my gas tanks were 40MPG or better on the trip. The only thing I've changed is that I've filled my tires to the maximum pressure as stamped on the sidewall before leaving on the trip. Gas came out to $192.85 for 1,991 miles. If I'm doing my math correctly, that is 9.68 cents per mile in fuel costs. Of course I would have to add in a little tire wear and $1.18 for oil consumption and some more for a future oil change for direct costs, and I suppose some more for mileage-based maintenance such as tires and mechanical wear if looking at the big scheme of things. It seems that at today's gas prices it would be difficult to see 10 cent per mile driving, definitely not if you are considering the purchase price of the car with it, unless of course my math is incorrect.
In the city and in town during the summer I rarely ever drop below 35 MPG unless I am doing a bit of spirited driving.
What I'm trying to get across is that there aren't too many new vehicles that seem to be able to get gas mileage of 40MPG or better right now without costing an arm and a leg. It just goes to show that our new technologies aren't really making gas mileage much better in relation to how much our cars weigh. My friend who drives a Prius has been getting high 40's and a 50 MPG reading in his car from time to time, I just can't imagine if I were to buy a new one how that extra cost for such a marginal improvement could ever pay off. If I wanted a hybrid I would watch like a halk until I see a used Honda Insight reach the $6k-8k range so I could get the 60+ MPG that I've read people are getting and then just hope that parts will be available and there won't be any battery issues. Cars like mine have tons of freely available junkyard parts for dirt cheap, new cars out of warranty and cars that are less common are a different story.
I know I'm a bit long winded with my typing and a very radical anti-new car person, but I haven't been on this forum for quite some time now and I felt like saying what I was thinking all the way back on my 19 hour drive back from Toronto two weeks ago.
The odd thing is a majority of those out there now have asking prices of $3-4k, but if you are patient enough one will occasionally pop up at or under $2k, but only for a few days before it is gone. It seems that many sellers are greedy and won't get offers and there are sellers who are way underpriced probably bought their cars and didn't figure that their fuel economy was contributing to its value.
I can't see a better solution for myself to own what I own right now. I've had this car for 50k miles and haven't had to buy any parts that weren't a part of standard maintenance such as tires, brakes, oil, coolant, sparks plugs, etc. Putting quick numbers down on paper, I think if I took all of my vehicle expenses and wrote them down, I could take the amount of money I spent on tires and it would probably equal the cost I spent on all the rest of the maintenance and repair. In the state of Minnesota the Tax, Title, and License of my car was accomplished with two $20 bills in 2006. In MN it's a very low fixed price if the vehicle is 10 years old or older, from what I've been hearing it might take an extra $20 to do the job today.
I recently went to Toronto earlier this month with my car, I filled the gas tank 4 times in the US and once in Canada where I only put $10CDN in, which buys a hair more than 2 gallons of gas there, and accomplished 536.1 miles of driving on 12.5 gallons of gas, getting 43 MPG with a car that has an EPA rating of 34 MPG on the highway. The rest of my gas tanks were 40MPG or better on the trip. The only thing I've changed is that I've filled my tires to the maximum pressure as stamped on the sidewall before leaving on the trip. Gas came out to $192.85 for 1,991 miles. If I'm doing my math correctly, that is 9.68 cents per mile in fuel costs. Of course I would have to add in a little tire wear and $1.18 for oil consumption and some more for a future oil change for direct costs, and I suppose some more for mileage-based maintenance such as tires and mechanical wear if looking at the big scheme of things. It seems that at today's gas prices it would be difficult to see 10 cent per mile driving, definitely not if you are considering the purchase price of the car with it, unless of course my math is incorrect.
In the city and in town during the summer I rarely ever drop below 35 MPG unless I am doing a bit of spirited driving.
What I'm trying to get across is that there aren't too many new vehicles that seem to be able to get gas mileage of 40MPG or better right now without costing an arm and a leg. It just goes to show that our new technologies aren't really making gas mileage much better in relation to how much our cars weigh. My friend who drives a Prius has been getting high 40's and a 50 MPG reading in his car from time to time, I just can't imagine if I were to buy a new one how that extra cost for such a marginal improvement could ever pay off. If I wanted a hybrid I would watch like a halk until I see a used Honda Insight reach the $6k-8k range so I could get the 60+ MPG that I've read people are getting and then just hope that parts will be available and there won't be any battery issues. Cars like mine have tons of freely available junkyard parts for dirt cheap, new cars out of warranty and cars that are less common are a different story.
I know I'm a bit long winded with my typing and a very radical anti-new car person, but I haven't been on this forum for quite some time now and I felt like saying what I was thinking all the way back on my 19 hour drive back from Toronto two weeks ago.
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