Terminating high mileage Civic 0W-20 test

[jmsbntz]

As our weather heats up it appears the 0W-20 is not viscous enough for my 199,xxx mile 93 Civic. After a 40 mile drive the oil light flickers while idling in gear at stops and takes longer to go out when starting the hot engine vs. cold start.

I may try this 50/50 blend:
Pennzoil Platinum 10W-30
Pennzoil High Mileage 10W-40
Visc @ 40°C, cSt 82.4
Visc @ 100°C, cSt 12.6

In theory oil consumption should decrease from the current 1 quart every 3,000 miles. I would have a UOA done at 5,000 to see if 7,500 is a realistic OCI for the blend in this car.

 

[Gary Allan]

Well, it sure shows how heavier oils benefited the engine from 93 to when you started the test.

No, really, good try. It would have been nice to have a pressure gauge ..but..

Why so radical in the switch?? Why not just either 5w-30 or 10w-30?

 

[JHZR2]

Sad that an engine with 199k cant hold sufficient pressure to run a 20wt oil. Especially all the claims of how wonderful honda engines are. Our integra had no issues at 190k with thin 30wt oils, we were going to run 20wt and we had no fear.

I do see a lot of civics that tend to show a little oil cloud at acceleration...

Perhaps the civic engine is less robust? We have multiple engines with as-new oil pressure and no consumption at same or higher mileage than yours.

All the same, interesting results. Thanks for running this test. Look forward to the UOA results. Practical testing like this is great, as data trumps hearsay and extrapolation.

Best,

JMH

 

[mechtech2]

Why concoct a blend?

 

[jmsbntz]

This one has the 1.6 engine and I got the car with 183k on it and no maintenance records, all I know is that I'm the 4th owner. I thought about testing the oil pressure with a gauge, but thinking about it was all I did.

I used PHM 10W-30 (100°C, cSt 11.7) from about 185k to 190k and it was only down about quart at my 5k OCI when I got the itch to try the 0W-20. So my proposed blend (100°C, cSt 12.6) is not a far stretch from that.

I do have a case of SSO 0W-30 (100°C, cSt 10.3) which is what I was going to run next. But I don't think a 1.7 cSt increase (by itself) over the 0W-20 will reduce consumption that much.
Although I could use the SSO and just add make-up oil for a year (if the oil pressure holds up) so that is a thought...

Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Why concoct a blend?

Because I can!

Actually I just think it would be interesting to see the results.

 

[OVERKILL]

I wonder what pressure that light comes on at?

Ultimately, this means you have some substantial bearing wear. So switching to a thicker oil is simply a band-aide. I ran Mobil 0w20 in my Mustang (engine that is now in the Capri in my sig) one winter and the difference between it and their 10w30 was only 6psi; the 0w20 giving me 32psi hot at idle.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
I wonder what pressure that light comes on at?
Me too.
Quote:
Ultimately, this means you have some substantial bearing wear.
It might also mean that he needs a new sender. The oil pump can be tired too

If they were really worn, it would feel like a turbo kicked in as the oil pressure came up.

 

[OVERKILL]

I had a buddy with a pretty shot 302, it had about 12psi hot at idle with 20w50 in it. It still ran just fine, no odd noises.

We eventually tore it down and the bearings were a MESS. This is why I asked my first question Buggered bearings don't necessarily mean that it's going to behave as you described unless of course there is a SERIOUS lack of pressure. 12psi is actually still within spec, but compared to others with the same motor, myself included, it was obvious there was something seriously wrong with the bottom-end. Tear-down proved we were correct.

An oil pressure gauge would definitely help.

 

[Max_Wander]

Those oil light switches are usually triggered at 1-2psi and less.... so that's kind of scary.

 

[jmsbntz]

Originally Posted By: Max_Wander
Those oil light switches are usually triggered at 1-2psi and less.... so that's kind of scary.


Well that would suck, but I'll check ALLDATA tomorrow to see what the oil pressure and sending unit specs are. I ordered a breather box O-ring, grommet and tube assy to take care of a little oil seepage, so while its on the rack I'll check the oil pressure if we have the right adapter in our domestic service shop.

Probably a combintaion of oil pump/bearing wear, plus the warmer weather and constant AC use that has helped the problem manifest itself (mid 90's forcast for this week). I'll have to turn the AC off when I stop and check the oil light because the compressor does seem to load the engine more than it should at idle.

I adjusted the valves at 185k and was surprised how clean the head was and the timing belt looked to be in very good shape. So its possible that it had some recent work done before I got it.

 

[BuickGN]

For what it's worth, and it probably means nothing in your case... I ran my GN at 0-1psi hot idle for two years as a daily driver and an 11.40 occasional track outing. The oil pump was very worn. Bearings didn't look great but they didn't look that bad either upon teardown. You may still be ok.

 

[BearZDefect]

Turning on the AC should raise the idle speed as the ECU compensates for the load. I assume that would also raise oil pressure, though the engine may be running hotter from the higher load so the hotter oil results in lower pressure.

I've used 5w-20 in my 1994 Civic with 235k mi for three OCIs, three different oils, never had the oil light come on. Oil consumption doubled compared to 5w-30, but still less than one quart in a 4k mile OCI. Note mine is a 1.5 where yours is a 1.6 liter.

I only give my example to show that an old Honda can use 5w-20 just fine (without any UOA proof on my part). I also tried 5w-20 on my old 1991 Accord and liked the result.

 

[jmsbntz]

The good news is that turning off the AC at stop lights made the light stop flickering. The bad news is turning the AC on lowers the idle speed... so I've got more digging to do.

The oil pressure specs a min of 10 psi at idle and I didn't check it because I'm working in our other shop for a couple weeks (it's a mess) and couldn't find the oil pressure gauge.

I had to remove the oil filter and intake support bracket to get the breather box off so while I was there I pulled the oil pressure light switch and found some sludge in it which I cleaned out with brake clean. I also saw that the head gasket had been replaced, so the head must have been off recently and would explain why it was so clean when I adjusted the valves.

I think the RLI 0W-20 has been cleaning the rest of the engine up during the last 10k. I didn't notice any engine smoke during my 185-190k PHM 10W-30 OCI. But the 190-195k RLI OCI began smoking lightly about 500 miles into it and stopped by 195k. I had cut the O'Reilly MicroGard open from that OCI and found some sludge in it. The 2,500 mile UOA from that run showed very low wear metals and a Visc @ 100°C, cSt of 8.0 so no worries there. The 195-200k OCI had no visible smoke.

Below is a shot of the PCV end of the breather hose.

[/img]

Here is the breather box end (yes the split goes through which helped coat the breather box with oil) and whats left of the brittle grommet, not shown is the plastic tube that connects them because I re-used it.

[/img]

Anyway I decided to step up the viscosity one grade at a time until oil consumption decreases instead of using my initial idea.
The SSO went in yesterday at 200,200 miles and will see some miles this weekend.

[/img]

The air filter on the left is from the last 10k and looks cleaner then it is because the clean side is up.
It does have a light film of fine sand on it and probably could have been used longer but I wanted to start with everything fresh for the SSO.

 

[Gary Allan]

Thanks for the update. It appears it's more of a air management issue than a visc issue. Keep us posted.

 

[MJS]

Quote:
It might also mean that he needs a new sender.


+1

My wife had a 1997 Chrysler Sebring that started the flickering business at idle on a hot day. We replaced the sender and started the car with the sender out so it could blow any crud out, and that did the trick.

Also, don't forget to spray some electrical contact cleaner/degreaser on the unit and connection. Any oily residue can conduct enough electricity to make it fault.

Hope this helps.

Mike

 

[ThirdeYe]

Are those red air filters both Purolator? I bought one for my car and it had white media. Cool looking filters!

 

[jmsbntz]

Drove almost 200 miles today with AC on and even cycled it on/off when I came to a stop in gear. The oil light did not flicker once. I put the car on ramps when I got home and checked the oil temperature with my infrared thermometer against the side of the oil filter while the engine was still running and it was a text book 212°F.

The filter on the left is an O'Reilly MicroGard and looks to be sourced from Purolator as well as the MicroGard oil filters I've seen.

 

[jmsbntz]

I terminated the wrong thing... "Why you little..!"

I need to terminate my sons driving privileges! He borrowed the car the night before I noticed the oil light. I told him the gas better be full when he brought it back and that I'm using double the Bio-Plus fuel treatment from the shelf in the garage until I change the oil.

He saw me checking the oil today and said he put two bottles in it last week like I told him to. I said what??? It ends up that he didn't read the destructions and put two 12 Oz. bottles of Bio-Plus in the engine!

Of course its my fault because I mentioned gas, oil and double when he was in a hurry to get to his girlfriend... Doh!

 

[Gary Allan]

I repeat myself about 3 times and make them recite what I've said. I've really figured out that life "Gary's way" is way too complicated for others.

My neighbor and I talked about this sorta thing. I went into various stories about how the kids found something "unright" and either ignored it or altered their behavior to avoid the anomaly ..never asking themselves what the anomaly was that caused them to alter their behavior.

He basically said, "It's because you care." I then said, "Yeah, I guess I should hand out quarters for them to hand me when they fail ..so that they can tell me to call someone who gives a sheet".

I sympathize ..make that empathize.. with your situation. I doubt there is comfort in knowing you're not alone.

 

[Audi Junkie]

This winter I'm going with unspeced DuraBlend 5w-20 in our 1998 Honda CRV. 130k, zero consumption and no smoke.