Tell me about Energy Conserving oils
- Thread starter Hirev
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To us, as individual consumers, the energy savings are minor. Keeping the tires aired up or making one less trip a week has similar effects.
But if the average state uses 6-10 million gallons of gas per day, the daily savings are 2% x 8 million = 160,000 gallons on paper. So the numbers add up.
CAFE and EPA driven.
bruce
bruce
I am switching to Esso XD3 Extra, 0w30, PAO, full synthetic following my AutoRX rinse phase.
Should I expect to see lower MPG relative to running Castrol GTX 5w30 dino juice?
Should I expect to see lower MPG relative to running Castrol GTX 5w30 dino juice?
That's a tough call to make, as the variables are outside temperature, driving cycles and engine & vehicle size.
Energy conserving PCMO's are only 2% more fuel efficient than non-starburst oils, so I would consider the 12 cSt, 0W-30 PAO vs. a 10 cSt, 5W-30 dino, to be a wash.
Energy conserving PCMO's are only 2% more fuel efficient than non-starburst oils, so I would consider the 12 cSt, 0W-30 PAO vs. a 10 cSt, 5W-30 dino, to be a wash.
If those particular oils are only 2% better in the mpg department, other than trying to sell larger, more gas guzzling vehicles, why such the push on these API SM oils then?
I would agree, in part. One can easily find themselves in "information overload" status if they immerse themselves in this board. It WAS easier to make a choice before BITOG, but I now have to question whether those "easy" choices were the right choices.quote:
Good reads Molekule, thanks....Although now i dont know what to think! When i knew less the choice was easier
If it turns out to be a wash, at the end of the day, I'll be happy.
I live in a mild winter climate and the car is used for mostly highway driving.
Ok Blue99, looking at it from that stand point, it does make a lot of sense. It just seemed to me that it was another way for the car manufacturers to get another one over on the public by using something that MIGHT cause a little more wear and tear (imagine that!) on the engine/drivetrain, thereby requiring us to spend more money faster to replace them and or the vehicle in general.
They are already starving these engines by the emissions controls, and using an oil that might now be quite up to the task of protection justs adds to that. There is only so much efficiency that you can get from an internal combustion engine in the first place.
I can't wait for hybrids to fully encompass a complete vehicle line, and also wish that they would start doing full scale the hydrogen fuel cell vehicles. **** the oil companies, full conservation ahead!!!
They are already starving these engines by the emissions controls, and using an oil that might now be quite up to the task of protection justs adds to that. There is only so much efficiency that you can get from an internal combustion engine in the first place.
I can't wait for hybrids to fully encompass a complete vehicle line, and also wish that they would start doing full scale the hydrogen fuel cell vehicles. **** the oil companies, full conservation ahead!!!
MolaKule
Staff member
The answer is the molecular bonding structure.
Don't think that organo-metallic compounds ( ZDDP, MoDTC, SbDTC) are always superior, because they can break down and decompose as well.
The molecular structure and associated inter-atomic bonding of high molecular weight PAO's, polymer esters, POE (synthesized) and natural esters, and other Group V fluids (in development) resist mechanical pressures, heat, and hydrolysis much better, in some cases, than do organo-metallic compounds. Their cost has prevented them from being used in all but the most critical applications.
Ok MolaKule, I get it now. What other Group V fluids are currently being developed. I didn't realize that there were more that could be classified into the Group V category. I thought that the concentration was on the "up and coming" Group III+ basestocks.
Speaking of the Group V's though, any thoughts on the so called "ideal" multi-viscosity oil 0w60 that NASA uses?
Speaking of the Group V's though, any thoughts on the so called "ideal" multi-viscosity oil 0w60 that NASA uses?
MolaKule
Staff member
Reducing friction isn't just for fuel economy, but reducing wear. I'd guess that some oils, maybe Redline for instance, would have higher viscosity oils that are as fuel efficient as another brand's lower viscosity oils. This would mean RL's Cf is lower.
So in theory you could have a GF-4 oil that met the fuel efficient spec but could still protect very well bc it would still be a higher viscosity. Any thoughts?
WOW!!! MolaKule, you is da man!!!
Now the big question still remains when and how much will these outstanding lubricative bases be to the average consumer like me looking for the "ultimate" in protection.
Now the big question still remains when and how much will these outstanding lubricative bases be to the average consumer like me looking for the "ultimate" in protection.
MolaKule
Staff member
You can't destroy the laws of physics. Thicker fluids mean higher energy losses, but also means thicker hydrodynamic films. And this is where the short term research is going; add a thicker fluid with a very good VI and shear characteristic to a thinner PAO, and use the appropriate protection and performance additives.
Now once more, I think you and others have confused Anti-Wear (AW) additives with friction reducers (FM's). Now FM's can mean friction reduction across the board, or friction that changes, depending on the relative speed between surfaces.
Friction reducers work by depositing sacrifical whiskers that are lopped off, much like a mower does to grass, keeping the metal separated mostly during the hydrodynamic or mixed lubrication regime. Friction reducers can also reduce the shearing action of the fluid, thus leading to better MPG and less energy dissipated in the oil.
Anti-Wear additives lay down a film that becomes plastic under pressure, preventing the surfaces from actually touching during the boundary lubrication regime, I.E., when there is barely an oil film or when the contact pressure is so high, the oil film is squeezed out (film strength exceeded by the localized pressure).
An Extreme Pressure (EP) additive not only forms a film, but chemically reacts with the first few micrometers of metal surface to form a sacrificial film such that the sacrificial film is allowed to SHEAR, rather than having the metal surfaces gouge, gall or shear against each other.
FM's and AW additives are used in engines oils and hydraulic fluids.
EP, AW, and FM additives are used in MT and differential gear lubes, with the EP additives being the predominant additive.
[ September 26, 2005, 09:54 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]
"Anti-Wear additives lay down a film that becomes plastic under pressure, preventing the surfaces from actually touching during the boundary lubrication regime, I.E., when there is barely an oil film or when the contact pressure is so high, the oil film is squeezed out (film strength exceeded by the localized pressure).
An Extreme Pressure (EP) additive not only forms a film, but chemically reacts with the first few micrometers of metal surface to form a sacrificial film such that the sacrificial film is allowed to SHEAR, rather than having the metal surfaces gouge, gall or shear against each other."
Please note that ZDDP the most common and widely
used AW additve will form non reversable films same as a Typical EP or Anti Scuff additive will.
In my mind the only diferences between AW and EP or Anti Scuff is the depth of chemical film and the speed of reaction both form a chemical and polar film.
bruce
An Extreme Pressure (EP) additive not only forms a film, but chemically reacts with the first few micrometers of metal surface to form a sacrificial film such that the sacrificial film is allowed to SHEAR, rather than having the metal surfaces gouge, gall or shear against each other."
Please note that ZDDP the most common and widely
used AW additve will form non reversable films same as a Typical EP or Anti Scuff additive will.
In my mind the only diferences between AW and EP or Anti Scuff is the depth of chemical film and the speed of reaction both form a chemical and polar film.
bruce
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