Surprised by a Prius

[ecotourist]

I've rented a Prius a couple of times. I liked them a lot.

The first time we rented one was in San Diego a couple of years ago when it was actually cheaper than a Corolla - but the next time we rented a car in California they were available at a big premium so I passed. The second time we rented one was in Boston last year, again at no additional cost.

I found the driving experience so different from most cars (I usually drive a manual) that it was like operating another kind of vehicle entirely. Which was kind of nice. I found them good in urban traffic and good on the freeway too.

I didn't care for the back up horn or the weird shifter but those are minor points.

As I say, I liked them a lot.

I suspect the mileage wouln't be as good in really cold weather because the engine must have to run to generate heat - though I don't know that.

Ecotourist

 

[supton]

Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Check back in when that VW has 93K.
I only write that because VW reliability and durability hasn't been all that good over the past couple of decades, and that isn't just internet drivel.
Maybe they're better now?
I do like the idea of a moderately priced diesel and the Passat offers a lot of space and refinement to go along with the great fuel economy.
I hope that you'll find it to be as reliable as it is economical.

Or 193k miles, I really wanted to get a TDI wagon instead of the Focus, but they still have timing belts and the used ones have crazy high mileage, or crazy high prices...
I am impressed how VW doesn't gouge people on their new cars with a TDI, for 4 cyl Camry money, you can get a TDI passat. If I was buying new, they would be very high on the list. Maybe a test drive would overcome my VW phobia!


They are nice cars, but I'm in no rush to get back into a VW. BTDT, it was fun, but now I want something that any corner shop can repair, or at least something that at least the dealer can work on.

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: supton

They are nice cars, but I'm in no rush to get back into a VW. BTDT, it was fun, but now I want something that any corner shop can repair, or at least something that at least the dealer can work on.

That was my thinking behind the Focus, simple common engine, no timing belt, and the 37mpg highway rating. I thought I could get 40 mpg out of it making a TDI or hybrid not worth the extra cash and potential complications. We are averaging more like 30mpg when my wife drives, I get 35mpg. So not bad but nothing special.
Probably I should've tried a Prius atleast but I didn't as they weren't in our price range, but perhaps I could've made an economic case to spend a bit more on one. My wife is a toyota/honda fan too, but I went for the KISS Focus and she likes driving it anyways.

 

[supton]

Hehe, I taught the wife to drive a stickshift, and now she won't buy a car without one. She also likes larger cars, and so she's very content with her Camry--so I really need to ratchet up my rust prevention work on that one!

When I bought the Jetta I was content to drive out of state for a timing belt. Never thought much about repairs at the time, but got tired of driving an hour plus for a competent mechanic.

After watching my car rust I'm not sure I'm interested in driving past 10 years of age anymore. After 10 years/250k residual value is going to low on anything. I'm about to the point where I'd pick the Prius over the Corolla: while the Corolla might cost less in repairs after 200kmiles the Prius would save lots of gas getting to 200k, and then I could just trade it in at that time for some trivial amount.

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: supton
Hehe, I taught the wife to drive a stickshift, and now she won't buy a car without one. She also likes larger cars, and so she's very content with her Camry--so I really need to ratchet up my rust prevention work on that one!

When I bought the Jetta I was content to drive out of state for a timing belt. Never thought much about repairs at the time, but got tired of driving an hour plus for a competent mechanic.

After watching my car rust I'm not sure I'm interested in driving past 10 years of age anymore. After 10 years/250k residual value is going to low on anything. I'm about to the point where I'd pick the Prius over the Corolla: while the Corolla might cost less in repairs after 200kmiles the Prius would save lots of gas getting to 200k, and then I could just trade it in at that time for some trivial amount.

I just did a quick search at trader.ca and prii do hold their value. Still $6k for ones with over 200k. Still not really servicable everywhere I imagine, but if you've got a good toyota service dept nearby, it probably would go very well.

 

[Nick1994]

My aunt has a 2004 VW TDI Beetle with 152k miles. Gets 40 mpg when driven really hard in stop and go traffic, and once traffic breaks up its up to over 80 mph. It's an automatic too. After 9 years it has only needed a starter and an alternator. That's it. She bought it new too.

3 weeks ago she got a 2013 VW TDI Beetle and kept the old one, this is VW TDI reliability.

 

[Zako2]

The debate on diesel vs hybrid drive-train has been raging forever, and I don't think this thread can settle it. The Prius gives you the peace of mind when you buy it because the reliability is by now proven. Gas also costs less than diesel fuel. On the other hand, a Golf or Jetta TDI will give you the kinds of thrills that you can't have in Prius, such as shifting your own gears. VWs are considered more "hip". On the other hand, Prius still suffers from a major perception problem in the sense that there will be a whole much of ignorant people who will judge you as an eco-zealot for driving a Prius.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: [email protected]
Again, as time goes on, people discover the Prius isnt as bad as it has been bad mouthed to be.


The more cars I drive, I find that I'm not as impressed as I "should be" with "good" cars and I'm not as disappointed as I "should be" with "bad" cars. In other words, some cars aren't nearly as bad as they're made out to be, and other cars aren't nearly as good as they're made out to be. My wife will tell you that my automotive sensitivity meter is pretty...well...sensitive, but I think differences in different cars aren't nearly what they're dramatized to be.

 

[Nick1994]

Well if you plan on keeping a hybrid, what about that battery that will die eventually, it'll cost a pretty penny.

 

[supton]

Originally Posted By: Nick1994
Well if you plan on keeping a hybrid, what about that battery that will die eventually, it'll cost a pretty penny.


Depends. From casual reading it's like $2k; pack might go as soon as 150kmiles, or it could troop out to 300k. Depends upon usage. If you ask me, that's in line with many other repair costs, and could be easily justified off the "gee I saved piles of money from gas over the last x years."

 

[dareo]

I wouldn't worry about the battery life driving a long commute like supton does. It's the short trippers that will have shorter battery life.

The combined added complexity and therefore repair potential of a hybrid can easily wipe out the fuel savings in long term ownership.

 

[FutureDoc]

Originally Posted By: dareo
It's the short trippers that will have shorter battery life.

The combined added complexity and therefore repair potential of a hybrid can easily wipe out the fuel savings in long term ownership.


Not really. The battery packs are proving to be significantly more reliable than initially assumed. Battery packs 11 years and older even with 200K miles are still operating at above 70% of its new capacity (at least for the Prius anyway).

A 2012 Prius will save nearly $6000 in fuel compared to the average new vehicle and just under $4000 over a Matrix. Considering that a new battery pack cost a few bucks under $3000 and a used pack cost around $1000 (minus the core credit so it might be cheaper), you are still making out like a bandit in fuel savings in just a couple of years.

Keep in mind that other things like the engine might cost just as much and can fail in any car.

Edit: You should also keep in mind that the gas-powered Atkinson cycle engine offers some cost-saving benefits as well.

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: dareo
I wouldn't worry about the battery life driving a long commute like supton does. It's the short trippers that will have shorter battery life.

The combined added complexity and therefore repair potential of a hybrid can easily wipe out the fuel savings in long term ownership.


On the battery, you are correct that after 10-15 years it will likely need a replacement and you have to factor that cost in. Assuming that it is $3000 like FutureDoc said, it is a chunk of change.

Now regarding to the combined complexity. The mechanical part of the car is quite straight forward, actually simpler when you look at the 2 electric motor based CVT / IVT over a standard automatic transmission. So far I haven't heard of a larger number of failures than a regular automatic transmission.

Your brake pads are likely going to last much longer, so I would imagine that would cover part of the future battery replacement fund?

 

[dareo]

Please elaborate on how a Prius will save 6,000 in fuel.

I see an average of 48 mpg on a 2012 Prius on Fuelly

The most sold car this year, albeit larger, Honda Accord will be my example with 4 cylinder models are averaging at least 30 mpg.

At 100,000 miles:

48 mpg Prius = 2083 gallons
30 mpg Accord = 3333 gallons

$3751 more in the Accord at today's prices.

If you use a car designed for high MPG like a Cruze Eco it gets even closer. Plenty of users are hitting 41+ with those

41 mpg Cruze Eco 2439 gallons, $1068 difference.

I do not think anyone is saving substantial money or environmental impact in a Prius. Not hating on the car, and i'm quite impressed at how they are holding up, its just not really what a lot of buyers think it is.

If you want to use larger numbers than 100k, i think people move on to newer cars by then. But, in the very long run i think a conventional non hybrid car will deliver longer miles of use. Getting another 50,000 miles before replacing a car can compensate for a lot of fuel expense.

 

[Nick1994]

I don't understand people who buy a Prius for a benefit for helping the environment, sure less coming out the tailpipe, but what about all that lithium in those big [censored] batteries? It comes from the rain forest. Mined by diesel machinery, which pollutes, and then trucked in a diesel, sent in a barge, and processed in factories, made into batteries, and then transported to be put into new cars.

Just my .02

 

[[email protected]]

Originally Posted By: Nick1994
I don't understand people who buy a Prius for a benefit for helping the environment, sure less coming out the tailpipe, but what about all that lithium in those big [censored] batteries? It comes from the rain forest. Mined by diesel machinery, which pollutes, and then trucked in a diesel, sent in a barge, and processed in factories, made into batteries, and then transported to be put into new cars.

Just my .02


Yup and some of us Prius owners even own big bad polluting boats with twin non-catalyzed Chevy based engines that get 1.25mpg...

And guess what?

We dont care. A very large percentage of us drive a hybrid for no other reason than keeping more of our hard earned money in our wallets vs. the gas station. Its as simple as that.

 

[[email protected]]

Originally Posted By: dareo
Please elaborate on how a Prius will save 6,000 in fuel.

I see an average of 48 mpg on a 2012 Prius on Fuelly

The most sold car this year, albeit larger, Honda Accord will be my example with 4 cylinder models are averaging at least 30 mpg.

At 100,000 miles:

48 mpg Prius = 2083 gallons
30 mpg Accord = 3333 gallons

$3751 more in the Accord at today's prices.

If you use a car designed for high MPG like a Cruze Eco it gets even closer. Plenty of users are hitting 41+ with those

41 mpg Cruze Eco 2439 gallons, $1068 difference.

I do not think anyone is saving substantial money or environmental impact in a Prius. Not hating on the car, and i'm quite impressed at how they are holding up, its just not really what a lot of buyers think it is.

If you want to use larger numbers than 100k, i think people move on to newer cars by then. But, in the very long run i think a conventional non hybrid car will deliver longer miles of use. Getting another 50,000 miles before replacing a car can compensate for a lot of fuel expense.


Im too tired to elaborate with you but I find it interesting you used the Priuses Fuelly averages but:

2012 Cruze Fuelly average = 33mpg, NOT 41mpg
2012 Accord Fuelly average = 26.5mpg, NOT 30mpg

Why use the Priuses 48.6mpg Fuelly average for a price comparison, report "some" Cruze owners get 41mpg (in all fairness, "some" Prius owners report getting 65+ mpg too) but then throw in some non-real world numbers for the Accord & Cruze ? That's some pretty selective math!

I bought a Prius when I traded in my 2002 Envoy that I owned for 8 years, 15.8mpg lifetime average. I wanted a newer Envoy, but test drove a Prius and a used 2007 Prius for $13k and a used 2009 Envoy for $18k, it made very much economic sense for me to get the Prius. I didnt want a Cruze or Accord. The 2007 Prius I bought was cheaper than a 2009 Cruze or an Accord at the time.

 

[dareo]

Sorry, i used 2013 for the Accord since its the new design, the 2012 was nothing exciting. Not sure is a 13 prius is higher MPG or not.

Cruze ECO models are getting 39-45 on fuelly and real good hypermile drivers are getting way more than that. Bad prius drivers are way below 48. I tried to get as fair of averages as possible. The non eco trim will not return the same mileage and that brings down the whole car average.

There are many other very efficient regular gasoline non hybrid cars out today.

Then there are electrics like the Volt and Leaf that really keep money out the middle east. Those put the Prius to shame for the average normal commute.

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted By: dareo
Please elaborate on how a Prius will save 6,000 in fuel.

I see an average of 48 mpg on a 2012 Prius on Fuelly

The most sold car this year, albeit larger, Honda Accord will be my example with 4 cylinder models are averaging at least 30 mpg.

At 100,000 miles:

48 mpg Prius = 2083 gallons
30 mpg Accord = 3333 gallons

$3751 more in the Accord at today's prices.

If you use a car designed for high MPG like a Cruze Eco it gets even closer. Plenty of users are hitting 41+ with those

41 mpg Cruze Eco 2439 gallons, $1068 difference.

I do not think anyone is saving substantial money or environmental impact in a Prius. Not hating on the car, and i'm quite impressed at how they are holding up, its just not really what a lot of buyers think it is.

If you want to use larger numbers than 100k, i think people move on to newer cars by then. But, in the very long run i think a conventional non hybrid car will deliver longer miles of use. Getting another 50,000 miles before replacing a car can compensate for a lot of fuel expense.

I cannot speak for your numbers, but I had a 2012 Malibu for 2 days while my 2011 Prius was in the body shop. During that time, the Malibu averaged about 19 mpg combined in my terrain. In comparison, my Prius averages about 40 in comparison.

I really don't know where you folks are getting the high 20s average with the mid sizers; I would have to guess that many of you live in rural areas with little traffic. In most metropolitan areas, I cannot see these midsizers getting more than mid 20s...and in the same use, the Prius will be in the low to mid 40s.

 

[[email protected]]

Originally Posted By: dareo
Sorry, i used 2013 for the Accord since its the new design, the 2012 was nothing exciting. Not sure is a 13 prius is higher MPG or not.

Cruze ECO models are getting 39-45 on fuelly and real good hypermile drivers are getting way more than that. Bad prius drivers are way below 48. I tried to get as fair of averages as possible. The non eco trim will not return the same mileage and that brings down the whole car average.

There are many other very efficient regular gasoline non hybrid cars out today.

Then there are electrics like the Volt and Leaf that really keep money out the middle east. Those put the Prius to shame for the average normal commute.


To keep it realistic, lets base all of the numbers off 2012 Fuelly averages.