It appears that there are a few folks on this site that have a strong bakground in terms of education and experience related to oil/lubrication and its industry. As a kid I always heard stories about technologies that yielded great efficiency/mileage from gas (super carburetors and such). Are such stories are plausible? I am just curious what others may think or know about this subject.
Super Efficiency - Plausible or Urban Legend
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The laws of thermodynamics state that as energy can't be created or destroyed, there is a finite amount that could potentially be gained from a quantity of fuel.
Next it says that there must be a process of getting from a high energy state to a low, and this defines the percentage of the energy in the first paragraph that can be turned into work, in a process that is reversible (i.e. you turn the shaft and the process runs backwards)
Next it says "and you don't even get that much", emphasising that any process is not ideal, and therefore reduces what you can get out of it.
There's enough stuff out there that I think there are serious gains to be made over the "standard" designs, but only up to the limit of thermodynamics.
Maybe when we conquer quantum mechanics, we can harness so called zero point energy or whatnot.
That being said, I know a very switched on guy who has (on paper at least) created a thermal cycle that is rather unique. I've reviewed his calculations, and am stunned at what it produces. I can't fault his maths, or his use of thermodynamics...he's starting a prototype, and it should be interesting.
Next it says that there must be a process of getting from a high energy state to a low, and this defines the percentage of the energy in the first paragraph that can be turned into work, in a process that is reversible (i.e. you turn the shaft and the process runs backwards)
Next it says "and you don't even get that much", emphasising that any process is not ideal, and therefore reduces what you can get out of it.
There's enough stuff out there that I think there are serious gains to be made over the "standard" designs, but only up to the limit of thermodynamics.
Maybe when we conquer quantum mechanics, we can harness so called zero point energy or whatnot.
That being said, I know a very switched on guy who has (on paper at least) created a thermal cycle that is rather unique. I've reviewed his calculations, and am stunned at what it produces. I can't fault his maths, or his use of thermodynamics...he's starting a prototype, and it should be interesting.
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We need to rob subspace of its energy. I hope no one shows up to collect the bill for the usage
We may make it to a Level III civilization ..bypassing Level II
We may make it to a Level III civilization ..bypassing Level II
Kestas
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rn2fine, are you talking about the mileage contests thay had 20-30 years ago, or the designs for the daily driver that were supposedly bought up by the oil companies?
With generous EGR you can raise the CR to levels found in diesel engines and get their thermal efficiency in a spark engine. I think EGR was the undisclosed secret of Smokey Yunick's engine.
if the egr was so great why do no racing teams that i am aware of use it? last time i was at the 24 hours of sebring i saw no engines with egr.
last time i was at moroso drag strip i saw no cars with ADDED egr. some had it from the factory, but no one actually added it, and a significant ammount of people removed it.
last time i was at moroso drag strip i saw no cars with ADDED egr. some had it from the factory, but no one actually added it, and a significant ammount of people removed it.
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We need to rob subspace of its energy. I hope no one shows up to collect the bill for the usage
I don't know if you've ever been harassed by a subprime, subspace loan collections agent, but trust me - it ain't pretty.
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Well, I don't know how practical it is in racing when you can just dose the charge with fuel to contain detonation. There you're looking for max output, not peak efficiency. 500 miles/24hours/3 seasons to a refresh is a little different than 150k miles of integrity
..but I do imagine that there is or has been research into ultra high compression gassers using egr to cut the intake charge with inert material. I also imagine that they've been confronted with "conflicting complications" in doing so. I've watched Chrysler's emission tech films (in the early 70's) where they showed the catalytic converter and marveled at how it cleaned up the exhaust. They then added that "unfortunately, it requires unleaded fuel to remain effective". That was one MAJOR obstacle to overcome ..but it occurred.
Sometimes there are things that are effective ..but are just not practical in the current confines of the market. The end user has to be (virtually) eliminated from the equation and can be required to do no more than get fuel and perform the minimal routine maintenance. The device/vehicle must jump through all the hoops for a "consumer ready" product. This narrows the support streams to those that are mass marketed and have to be compatible with everyone else in the market.
Look what Ford had to do to get to use 5w-20 for their EPA/CAFE testing. They had to bring a 5w-20 oil to market where one wasn't widely available. They knew that they could run it. GM knew that they could run it ..so did DC, Toy, ..everyone. They knew this due to common shearing of older 5w-30 oils. So it wasn't rocket science to use this stuff. It was, however, totally dependent upon Ford's profit model that resided totally in larger gas guzzlers and their distinct need for every spare .01'th of mpg on the economy cycle. Other manufacturers were not so heavily weighted in the upper end offerings and didn't see the cost effectiveness of bringing a new oil to market (widely available) just for the efficiency of it.
Very little room to navigate on innovation ..at least at reasonable cost. Now, and for a pretty long time, it's been sorta reversed. The government just modifies the obstacle course as required and the manufacturers have to figure how to jump through the hoops. They often "can't get there from here"
but thats not entirely true though. in road racing fuel economy is a big issue. if youre more fuel efficent you can carry less fuel and subsiquently, weigh less.
if a pound of egr equipment could save someone 6 lbs per gallon of fuel, hey thats a 1:6 ratio improvment. but nobody does it.
the other thing is, my stratus had egr. it also has a trip computer and instant as well as averaged fuel economy display. after having this car for a while i removed the egr and under steady interstate driving, my fuel economy went slightly up. i didnt notice a difference in city driving or spirited driving.
if a pound of egr equipment could save someone 6 lbs per gallon of fuel, hey thats a 1:6 ratio improvment. but nobody does it.
the other thing is, my stratus had egr. it also has a trip computer and instant as well as averaged fuel economy display. after having this car for a while i removed the egr and under steady interstate driving, my fuel economy went slightly up. i didnt notice a difference in city driving or spirited driving.
MasterACid,
racing engines are heavily concerned about volumetric efficiency, and the resultant power density that it produces.
EGR takes up chamber space and heats the intake, not conducive to high BMEP.
EGR has little place in a racing engine, although I'm sure that with enough thought EGR could partially replace the throttling process...too hard.
racing engines are heavily concerned about volumetric efficiency, and the resultant power density that it produces.
EGR takes up chamber space and heats the intake, not conducive to high BMEP.
EGR has little place in a racing engine, although I'm sure that with enough thought EGR could partially replace the throttling process...too hard.
I think that Smokey was cracking the fuel into H2 and CO, similar to the coal gas process (if you do an energy balance on a typical IC engine, there is enough high grade waste heat to perform the "water gas" process, returning a significant portion of the waste heat to the good side of the process).
I've got some tests that were carried out at Monash University where they put a 1.3 High C.R. engine in a J-Car (replaced the 1.8), with turbo, and very high EGR to control knock.
They had BIG problems with exhaust gas temperature, finding it only worthwhile with EGR coolers, and high complexity.
It's still not ruled out, 'though.
To get any power out of a high EGR engine, you have to turbocharge it. It's for detonation control, and it helps reduce NOx, but it robs lots of power, since it's a non combustible. His engine apparently had to use jet turbine oil to keep clean, it ran so hot.
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