HOBS base oils and implicit/inherent FM

[OVERKILL]

Was talking to @AEHaas about some comments he shared with me from Terry Dyson with respect to the RLI oils he's been using in his Ferrari. One of the comments made was about the HOBS base oils that RLI uses, which have extremely high natural VI's (212 average according to RLI). This comment was in reference to an observation I made, that the oil didn't appear to have any traditional FM chemistry in it. No Moly, no Titanium. The lab didn't test for Tungsten.

The comment was (paraphrasing) that the different "cuts" of the HOBS base oils provided some inherent level of FM, which, while odd sounding to me, I'm not going to discount out of hand.

Mention was also made about a lack of conventional PPD's being required/employed (which I'm not surprised about).

A bit of searching found this article:

Biolubricant product development​

Jan C.J. Bart, ... Stefano Cavallaro, in Biolubricants, 2013

(redacted ... copyright)​

From here:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/oleic-oil


Sounds very marketing-heavy from RLI, but I don't see any mention of FM function.

Also found the comments about some of the performance challenges interesting.

Would love to have some input from @MolaKule and @High Performance Lubricants on this. How much is hype, how much is legit performance?

 

[UG_Passat]

There was a reason why Dyson went with RLI when it came to the RI_RS6 5w40.

RLI did use copper and antimony as part of the additive package back in the day. Not sure what the current additive package looks like these days.

 

[MolaKule]

1) I do not know what TD told Mr. Hass but I would not put any stock in anything TD has told anyone,

2) Most of the research on vegetable oils and their derivatives were executed at the University of Northern Iowa (Cedar Falls) by Dr. Lou Honary, who now heads Environmental Lubricants Manufacturing, Inc. of Grundy Center, Iowa.

Dr. Lou Honary worked closely with RLI's president William W. Garmier in developing many of RLI's formulations.

And yes, any formulation involving vegetable oils and their derivatives require a special additive package to inhibit oxidation.

RLI used Antimony DTC's in many of their formulations because they worked well with HOBS and acted as FM's, antioxidants, and anti-wear agents.

And HOBS do have natural FM qualities as well, but they cannot provide sufficient FM activity on their own.

Many of RLI's lubricants contain other base oils such as synthesized hydrocarbons (PAO's) and synthesized esters.

The main appeal for HOB's is their biodegradability.

 

[OVERKILL]

1) I do not know what TD told Mr. Hass but I would not put any stock in anything TD has told anyone,

2) Most of the research on vegetable oils and their derivatives were executed at the University of Northern Iowa (Cedar Falls) by Dr. Lou Honary, who now heads Environmental Lubricants Manufacturing, Inc. of Grundy Center, Iowa.

Dr. Lou Honary worked closely with RLI's president William W. Garmier in developing many of RLI's formulations.

And yes, any formulation involving vegetable oils and their derivatives require a special additive package to inhibit oxidation.

RLI used Antimony DTC's in many of their formulations because they worked well with HOBS and acted as FM's, antioxidants, and anti-wear agents.

And HOBS do have natural FM qualities as well, but they cannot provide sufficient FM activity on their own.

Many of RLI's lubricants contain other base oils such as PAO's and esters.

The main appeal for HOB's is their biodegradability.

Antimony! Ahhh, OK, forgot about that one. I knew there was another FM or two that I couldn't remember, thank you for that! The analysis did not check for that either.

 

[MolaKule]

Antimony! Ahhh, OK, forgot about that one. I knew there was another FM or two that I couldn't remember, thank you for that! The analysis did not check for that either.

Just to add, hydrogenation (introduction of hydrogen gas at a specified temperature) to the vegetable oil's triglycerides will tend to stabilize them against oxidation but just like Group II, III, IV, and V oils, hydrogenation cannot do it alone in a formulated oil.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

1) I do not know what TD told Mr. Hass but I would not put any stock in anything TD has told anyone,

2) Most of the research on vegetable oils and their derivatives were executed at the University of Northern Iowa (Cedar Falls) by Dr. Lou Honary, who now heads Environmental Lubricants Manufacturing, Inc. of Grundy Center, Iowa.

Dr. Lou Honary worked closely with RLI's president William W. Garmier in developing many of RLI's formulations.

And yes, any formulation involving vegetable oils and their derivatives require a special additive package to inhibit oxidation.

RLI used Antimony DTC's in many of their formulations because they worked well with HOBS and acted as FM's, antioxidants, and anti-wear agents.

And HOBS do have natural FM qualities as well, but they cannot provide sufficient FM activity on their own.

Many of RLI's lubricants contain other base oils such as synthesized hydrocarbons (PAO's) and synthesized esters.

The main appeal for HOB's is their biodegradability.

Just adding a link for Environmental Lubricants Manufacturing Inc

Interesting stuff. Looks like it's mostly low temperature lubes/greases.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Just to add, hydrogenation (introduction of hydrogen gas at a specified temperature) to the vegetable oil's triglycerides will tend to stabilize them against oxidation but just like Group II, III, IV, and V oils, they cannot do it alone.

And Crisco. haha..couldn't help it.

 

[bruce381]

1) I do not know what TD told Mr. Hass but I would not put any stock in anything TD has told anyone,

LOL yeah +1

 

[d00df00d]

1) I do not know what TD told Mr. Hass but I would not put any stock in anything TD has told anyone,

LOL yeah +1

Because?

(I'm curious)

 

[MolaKule]

Because?

(I'm curious)

I am curious as to why you are curious over an ancient comment?

 

[Patman]

I am curious as to why you are curious over an ancient comment?

Exactly! And the guy who made that comment hasn’t been here for a full year so he’s unlikely to even answer

 

[d00df00d]

Wasn't aware that curiosity required an explanation.

If no one wants to answer, that's fine.

 

[Patman]

Wasn't aware that curiosity required an explanation.

If no one wants to answer, that's fine.

The only person who can answer your question is the guy who hasn’t been here in a year. You could try sending a PM and maybe he will see an email notification.

 

[Jetronic]

Molakule originally made the comment though

 

[MolaKule]

Molakule originally made the comment though

Yes I did as an off-the-cuff sarcastic remark and I do not know the content of the conversation that occurred between Haas and or others.

Here are my opinionated reasons for making that remark:

The person in question is not a formulator or tribologist so the information he gave is highly suspect.

The person in question worked closely with RLI so his information is biased.