HDEO with a GTL base oil?

[RDY4WAR]

I fully understand the indisputable fact that rotella doesn't do good in the lab but in the real world I'm not seeing rotella be an issue. mechanical injection engines should be having issues with high foam rotella but they seemingly don't. Looking up heui injector issues with rotella on here and elsewhere yields nothing. There also doesn't seem to be a sludge issue with rotella either. They don't seem to have wear issues either. Still I won't be buying it for the time being but I'm not sure it's that big of an issue.

I see it all the time in the racing world. It's just that most of the issues are blamed on something else or are taken as normal with abusive racing use. If you're convinced, beyond any shadow of a doubt, that the oil you're using is god's elixir, you'll never consider it to be the cause of any issues. "Well, I got good oil in it so that can't be the problem." What's sadder is they only think it's good oil because Joe Schmoe on Facebook, who thinks a 5W-50 is less viscous than a 10w30, told them so. "T4 has been great. Oil pressure is great, no issues at all." "What about the fact that you're on your 3rd set of rod and main bearings in 2 years?" "Oh, that's just the cost of racing. Engine's run hard, things break, it happens." *looks over at my engine using a 0W-12 oil with the same bearings for 6 years now* ... "Ok then." Many of these people also think "oil is oil" and thus don't even consider that a better oil is even a thing.

 

[Plumb Bob]

I see it all the time in the racing world.

That's the wrong application for Rotella. That's Bruhtellitis, I reckon.

 

[altaylar]

It's interesting in this same post complaining about Rotella marketing, appears this picture. Isn't this HPL marketing? Does this test actually mean anything in the real world?

Good point, I don't think this is something that means much for your car's engine. I don't know if firms really publicly share how much marketing budget they have for their individual products, but worth remembering that marketing budget is not only spend on "manipulating the customers' opinion." Probably the rebates etc. are also included in those figures.

I still do not know much about HPL's product line, but I understand that they make some of the best oil out there, and their price reflects that. I think Rotella is a fantastic line of products, and the chances are it is way more than enough for most of us. Not to mean it is better than HPL, but it is certainly cheaper

 

[johnmyster]

I still do not know much about HPL's product line, but I understand that they make some of the best oil out there, and their price reflects that. I think Rotella is a fantastic line of products, and the chances are it is way more than enough for most of us. Not to mean it is better than HPL, but it is certainly cheaper

The rule should work both ways.

We shouldn't trash Rotella for being garbage in the wrong application and we shouldn't worship a boutique for being an amazing oil for an application we don't have. I don't really care if 2012 T6 foamed in a subaru or an outboard.

Equally, we should trash Rotella if it's garbage in the intended bro-diesel pickup market. What's that tag line LSJ is always touting? Something about application determining chemistry or performance requirements.

Meanwhile, Delo and Delvac are back on rebate cycle and that's all I care about.

 

[RDY4WAR]

D892 is a requirement for API and many licenses and approvals. HPL is not mentioned in my comment. The test was done in their lab, as they had a few minutes to do it per a request based on foam problems seen in the field, and the test reflected that. HPL is a company built on integrity. They're not going to throw away their reputation by fudging a foam test.

Foam is a problem for a number of reasons. The biggest concern is cavitation of the pump and/or bearings. It also accelerates oxidation and greatly reduces specific heat capacity causing a spike in oil temperature.

In a diesel engine lugging at 1500 rpm for hours unend with a sump measured in gallons, Rotella is likely sufficient despite it not meeting the standard. It's not for all diesels, such as the warranty claim problems it caused in 3rd gen ecodiesels. The problem I have is with many people promoting it as something it's not and using it in applications well outside the scope of its formulation such as newer GDI engines, racing engines, and so on, then failing to acknowledge its faults when something goes wrong. There's way more hype around it than there is performance, and the dollar value in the product itself is quite low unless you go all-in on rebates.

 

[buster]

Never understood the obsession with GTL.

 

[userfriendly]

Never understood the obsession with GTL.

I never understood the obsession three members have about Rotella and foam.
The best cure for air entrapment is prevention.

 

[Plumb Bob]

I never understood the obsession three members have about Rotella and foam.

Your engine gets drunk and bites like a rabid dog!

 

[Hohn]

I've posted the story elsewhere, but by far the most impressive post-test teardown I've ever seen was an QSK60 run on Delvac 1. It was burning GTL fuel also and after a whopping 1.6 million gallons of fuel burn, it looked immaculate. The fuel pump looked new. The injectors looked nearly new.

That one teardown probably converted many HHP Cummins guys into Delvac 1 users.

Update—a colleague says he has pictures of this famous Delvac tear down. Standby…

 

[kschachn]

Never understood the obsession with GTL.

It is a good base stock with good saturation level and low contaminates. A high-ish VI as well. But at the same time it does not mean that other hydrocracked Group III base stocks can't meet the same criteria.

And a good Group IV base still is better, but at a higher cost and lower availability.

 

[Hohn]

I'm going to make a new thread for the teardown.

 

[crashz]

While I use Amsoil for most things I keep Brotella on the shelf too, especially when its on sale. I go through a surprising amount of HDEO with my side business. It may not be anything special, but its a lot better that oils that are spec'ed for old trucks and equipment. Is it the best, no. Is it better than straight 30 weight? Yep.

 

[4wd]

The rule should work both ways.

We shouldn't trash Rotella for being garbage in the wrong application and we shouldn't worship a boutique for being an amazing oil for an application we don't have. I don't really care if 2012 T6 foamed in a subaru or an outboard.

Equally, we should trash Rotella if it's garbage in the intended bro-diesel pickup market. What's that tag line LSJ is always touting? Something about application determining chemistry or performance requirements.

Meanwhile, Delo and Delvac are back on rebate cycle and that's all I care about.

Just found this
Not “an outboard” - twins …
The Rotella that foamed was supposed to carry the same ASTM anti foaming credentials as the OEM oil that did not foam. Exact conditions as you can get.
The fact remains that people dump HDEO in all kinds of things - and some will continue to do so - so why not give them info …
As for the Brotella slang - that’s good fun with the testosterone thing - not Shell’s HDEO - that again, they only recommend for what it’s made for …

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

I don't care why that particular engine does or doesn't implode. The oil that barely keeps that mess together, that's the oil I want to run in all my vehicles. How short-sighted can we get?

You’re right, that’s pretty short-sighted of you. Why use an oil so terrible that the minute it’s outside of the manufacturer’s responsibility, then it fails and leaves you with a huge bill?

Now, I can see using an inexpensive oil that keeps the engine in serviceable condition for the warranty period, and then switching to an even better oil after warranty so that the engine will last as long as your ownership, because every year you extend your ownership of that vehicle without needing expensive repairs is the equivalent of thousands, if not tens of thousands of dollars in your pocket. Thousands for a rebuild, or tens of thousands if you decide to purchase a new vehicle to replace it. Some folks simply don’t have that kind of money, so $250/year for an oil that will extend an engine’s usable life is like hitting the jackpot. And that, friend, is a long-sighted approach.

 

[johnmyster]

You’re right, that’s pretty short-sighted of you. Why use an oil so terrible that the minute it’s outside of the manufacturer’s responsibility, then it fails and leaves you with a huge bill?

Now, I can see using an inexpensive oil that keeps the engine in serviceable condition for the warranty period, and then switching to an even better oil after warranty so that the engine will last as long as your ownership, because every year you extend your ownership of that vehicle without needing expensive repairs is the equivalent of thousands, if not tens of thousands of dollars in your pocket. Thousands for a rebuild, or tens of thousands if you decide to purchase a new vehicle to replace it. Some folks simply don’t have that kind of money, so $250/year for an oil that will extend an engine’s usable life is like hitting the jackpot. And that, friend, is a long-sighted approach.

Point stands, there is still no evidence that T6 foaming is occurring in, or leading to wear in HDEO applications for which CK-4 is specified. Even if makes for a neat laboratory milk frother demo, it passes the requisite certification tests that occur in real engines.

 

[maraakate]

Point stands, there is still no evidence that T6 foaming is occurring in, or leading to wear in HDEO applications for which CK-4 is specified. Even if makes for a neat laboratory milk frother demo, it passes the requisite certification tests that occur in real engines.

I don't know what's up with the forum on Rotella. Yeah, there's better stuff out there and this stuff is performing fine. You got people calling it "BROtella" which really shows off the immaturity around here and goes on complete crusades to crush it. Yet, we tell everyone who has a slight hesitation off-throttle to switch to Valvoline Restore and Protect.

Look, I use it for an application outside its intended use and it works fine (vintage bikes). Many others do the same. And even here we have plenty of people using different oils for other applications. Not sure what is the big deal with the vendetta against Rotella. I am not a "bro" of using it. It's cheap and I change it frequent enough it's a non-issue in my application. I'm not hurting anyone and others here using it in tons of applications aren't either. Who cares? If you want to spend the $20 more for the 5 gallon to get Delvac or whatever then go right ahead. I won't stop you. I don't care.

 

[RDY4WAR]

You can eat McDonalds, which passes minimum standards for food, for 40 years and never develop heart disease. It doesn't mean it's a good option or that the risk of issues isn't higher. Survivorship bias, like all bias, can be blinding.

There's evidence out there of Rotella's failures. You just have to open your mind to it. Here's one such example of where Rotella's foaming issue caused bearing cavitation. This isn't uncommon in engines outside the scope of Rotella's formula. You don't see many associating such problems with Rotella because they put Rotella on such a high pedestal. They think the oil is great and can do no harm and thus never once gets blamed when a problem occurs. A guy near me rebuilds his bracket engine every winter with the bearings coming out looking like these. He's using Rotella T4 15W-40 in a drag application 383ci SBC turning 7000 rpm. He thinks the oil is serving him well and that bearing quality must be the issue. Changed bearing brands 3x with the same problem and now just calls it the cost of racing. He won't even entertain the idea that Rotella is at fault. It's "the best oil."

 

[maraakate]

Note that I did not say it was the best oil and I did not say that it was even the right oil to use in other applications. When you start using it in other applications all bets are off. If my CB550 decided to throw a rod over this oil and verified during teardown that is my fault. I can't blame Shell for not meeting the spec that's required for JASO and your buddies drag racing example shows that he's an idiot. Racing oils are completely different animals. He tried to cut a corner and sometimes it works out and other times it does not.

I don't think Rotella is the best oil. But, in a vintage motorcycle that requires 1500 mile maintenance intervals it's a good oil in my unusual case. There are plenty of other options out there. In a carbureted bike with cams that eat themselves quickly it makes little sense to spend the extra money on something like HPL. Don't get me wrong, I'd LOVE to run HPL in these old bikes, but it's not going to extend the drain all that much with these. I used Honda GN4 for years and this stuff is cheaper and seems to work fine. I had the engine tore down and rebuilt on another vintage bike (my 400 twin) and there was nothing offensive found.

Again, making it very clear here that what I am doing does NOT mean it's going to work for you in your Subaru or your drag engine.

Also, aren't used oil analysis supposed to detect something like bearing failures in your drag engine? Maybe that should be the cost of doing racing?

 

[kschachn]

Also, aren't used oil analysis supposed to detect something like bearing failures in your drag engine? Maybe that should be the cost of doing racing?

No not necessarily.

 

[maraakate]

No not necessarily.

OK. I don't run them, but I do know they can help detect it, but from what I've seen from lurking for years it is not the gospel.

Either way, I do think using consumer grade oils available at AutoZone and TSC in a serious racing application is pretty foolish. And in before someone says something about Amsoil or LiquiMoly, etc. Those are not typical oils available at those locations.

If there is something the same price as the Rotella that works in my specific use case, then I have no problem switching to it. That's out of the scope of this topic though.